Kansas Crimson

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:53 am Chalmers 08 season was better than Tyshawn's 12 ( entire season ).
Same with Devon's season.
Same with Sherron's 09 season.
Certainly same with Vonte's 2018 season.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:23 am Statically Chalmers 08 season was better than Ty's.
You are looking simply at PPG.
And then not factoring in 1st team All B12 defense.

Chalmers being on a stacked team was not unlike both Dok and Dot not making a 1st team this season.

I think you used win shares in the past as well as a metric for comparison.
08 Chalmers > Ty 12 in win shares.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:19 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:19 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 amYou can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 amYou can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

^^^^^
Even awards work that way.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:47 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 amYou can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

^^^^^
Even awards work that way.

Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:52 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:47 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am

^^^^^
Even awards work that way.

Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!

Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:19 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am I just don’t overvalue seniors and fat little engines that couldn’t

To be clear, Sherron does better in the "peak" analysis than he does the "career" analysis. Only Frank had a better peak than Sherron's junior season.

I completely disagree. I remember calling my brother after the Michigan State game and telling him it was time for Sherron to go. I didn’t give a fuck where he went, just gtfo.

You can always shape stats to fit whatever argument you are making but you’re never comparing apples to apples. Different roles, different teams, different styles, different eras, different teammates, different schedules etc.

Sherron is, was and always will be a short, fat little shit with an awful attitude. No thanks on leading a team.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:12 pm

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:52 am

Cascadia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:47 am

Yup. Frank Mason is a better basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Because, Naismith Award!!!!!

And just think about how badly TJ Ford would school Magic! Or Jimmer!

Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.

I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:31 pm If only Sherron spent as much time training as he did eating threads on the satellite bored.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:22 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:12 pm

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:52 am

Well, we're going down a road that I have no desire to rehash again, and I don't see how anyone could leave Frank Mason out of Bill Self's top 5 players all time.

But, to your point, the 2nd and 3rd place vote getters in 2017 for the Naismith were Caleb Swanigan and Lonzo Ball. Especially when you compare to a player in the 80's/90's, it's just different.

I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.

If Frank plays in the same season as Zion Williamon, Anthony Davis, Jalen Brunson, he finishes 2nd in voting, just like Devonte'. Even Sherron did pretty well in NPOY voting. That's where what looks like an objective measure just is not completely.

Stats, awards, Final Fours, Championships, whatever, a handful of guys were fantastic. Make a list, and it's probably fine--so long as Naadir is last.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:03 pm

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:22 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:12 pm

I don't know - as we know, Bill's time here started at the very beginning of the one-and-done era. I think that period of time is stable enough where there's just not a reasonable argument for anyone but Frank.

If Frank plays in the same season as Zion Williamon, Anthony Davis, Jalen Brunson, he finishes 2nd in voting, just like Devonte'. Even Sherron did pretty well in NPOY voting. That's where what looks like an objective measure just is not completely.

Stats, awards, Final Fours, Championships, whatever, a handful of guys were fantastic. Make a list, and it's probably fine--so long as Naadir is last.

I just don't see it this way. He won the damn things, pretty much all of them. For that particular season of college basketball, he was the dude. That carries a lot of weight with me.