Kansas Crimson

Once Russia began amassing weapons/troops on the Ukrainian border, why was the U.S.just hoping they wouldn’t invade Ukraine. Stupid-stupid-stupid. This whole mess could have been averted with a huge show of strength in eastern Ukraine. But it didn’t happen partly because Biden was afraid of Putin. Sending in dribs and drabs of artillery now is too little too late.
I’m hoping that there is a plan to unblock those ports for the Ukrainian farmers so they can get paid. Biden doesn’t seem to be as frustrated about it as he should be.

there's a long history of Russia/Ukraine conflict, and in US meddling in as much.

Much of this current conflict can be traced back to the Maidan revolution of 2014, when a far right coup was staged in Ukraine.

(there's a lot of smoke out there about how the coup was backed by the CIA, but let's leave that much to Qusdahl for now)

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:58 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:28 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:23 pm do you have a link or an official statement or anything at all to back this up?

Or do you just feel fairly confident on just like some kind of hunch?

What do you think these people's JOBS are? The US sent a formal proposal back in January. The Russians responded. They do not provide the details included in these proposals as they deem it "unproductive to the discussions". I am sure that a number of counterproposals have followed. It's called the State Department.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 118_1.html

I wish this article actually gave some details on the terms.

I know that Russia has for years requested that NATO dial back militant operations in eastern Europe. Now I don't want to concede a thing to Putin either because fuck him, but I do like the idea of any dialing back of military operations. I also struggle to understand what NATO is even doing in eastern Europe, and what those operations do to benefit me or Mich or any other peoples.

So, if I may ask you: if you were the POTUS, and Putin called you up and said "I'll knock off this Ukraine invasion if you and your pals at NATO knock off the aggression in eastern Europe," would you take that deal?

I do not have even the slightest bit of knowledge to provide any sort of intelligent answer to that as I have no idea what the consequences would be.

Do I think that NATO doing drills in the Black Sea puts Russia on edge? Yes, it appears that way. Do I think that Russia would stop what they are doing if NATO promised to stop doing those for a period of time? No, they have proven over and over that they are liars, as has NATO.

dolomite wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:59 pm Once Russia began amassing weapons/troops on the Ukrainian border, why was the U.S.just hoping they wouldn’t invade Ukraine. Stupid-stupid-stupid. This whole mess could have been averted with a huge show of strength in eastern Ukraine. But it didn’t happen partly because Biden was afraid of Putin. Sending in dribs and drabs of artillery now is too little too late.
I’m hoping that there is a plan to unblock those ports for the Ukrainian farmers so they can get paid. Biden doesn’t seem to be as frustrated about it as he should be.

Just a big fat assumption to fit your narrative. There is nothing in Putin's history that leads anyone to believe that what you stated "would" have happened would have actually happen.

wait, who's the liars?

Just Russia, or NATO too?

I don't think it was your intention, but you illustrate quite the double standard. the US and NATO thinks they should be able to fuck around in the Black Sea (or anywhere else they want) with impunity...yet as soon as Russia does it, it's this humanitarian crisis.

There's such shameless hypocrisy here. The US and NATO have perpetrated as many war crimes as anyone, if not more. It's disingenuous to for them to pretend they're taking any moral high ground (especially when there's nazis involved!)

Just bear in mind - the way the rest of the world feels about Russia invading Ukraine, is analogous to the way the rest of the world felt about the US invading Iraq, et al. And the way you speak of Putin (fuck him), is the way the rest of the world speaks of US presidents.

I wish there was some way for the US (and NATO) to reconcile its own brutal past, and its own hypocritical warmongering. Any thoughts there, anyone?

I'd say we should subject US leaders to be tried by the international criminal court's war crimes tribunal. But! bear in mind, that treaty was rejected by none other than George W. Bush. Instead, he enacted the "American Service Member's Protection Act," which basically said if the International criminal court tried to try any US personnel for war crimes then the US would invade The Netherlands.

there's also some question of just what NATO is even worth any more. Why maintain an alliance against the Soviet Union when the Soviet Union hasn't existed for like 30 years now?

Posted less as commentary on the war, and more as commentary on the pope “warning against what he said was a fairytale perception of the conflict as good versus evil.”

can I get a lulz?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... 1655205669

Wait, you like the Pope now? That is a lulz.

Look ousie, one side is the aggressor and one side is fighting for their lives. It's not that difficult.

Let’s see here:

Trump buddies up to Putin, while claiming he doesn’t even know him.

Trump and Putin have a secret meeting.

Trump cuts off aid to Ukraine.

Putin invades Ukraine.

Sound simple enough?

Yes! Finally. It's trumps fault. Again.

Classic.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:28 pm Yes! Finally. It's trumps fault. Again.

Classic.

I know that you are most likely stupid, so I will try not to enable your downward spiral on yet another thread.

Overlander wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:48 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:28 pm Yes! Finally. It's trumps fault. Again.

Classic.

I know that you are most likely stupid, so I will try not to enable your downward spiral on yet another thread.

India backs down, clearing the way for Finland and Sweden to join NATO

India?

you mean Turkey?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:11 am India?

you mean Turkey?

do i?

maybe i misheard on the radio

yup, i misspoke

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022 ... -explainer

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:42 am yup, i misspoke

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022 ... -explainer

right on.

so Turkey objected to Finland and Sweden joining NATO cuz those countries support the Kurds, and Turkey wants them to cut that out, extradite some Kurds, and sell arms to Turkey instead.

Turkey also doesn't like the support of the Syrian separatist YPG group, although "he YPG has been backed by many Western nations in the fight against ISIL (ISIS)"

also something about the US selling fighter jets to Turkey, but the US didn't wanna do it cuz Turkey bought missile defense systems from Russia.

Finland and Sweden maintained some stance of "neutrality" for decades, even though Finland borders Russia, and endured a Soviet invasion back in the day. Sweden has even tried to use its stance of neutrality to act as mediator between other powers, but apparently not any more. They're now abandoning neutrality in favor of joining a militant alliance against another alliance that's been dissolved for over 30 years now.

There's even that question of whether NATO ever agreed to not continue eastern expansion since, but either way, here we are.

of course, this is all shit Russia has condemned, and will only piss off the nuclear power even further, but I guess that's the end game? the only thing left to do now is, sit back and try to enjoy the flash.

it all makes Qusdahl long for the days when the only interest he took in foreign affairs was this:

c’mon dude…nothing in what you posted placed any blame for this on putin

finland and sweden would still be “neutral” if not for putin’s nonsense

and Ukraine would very likely still not be any closer to NATO membership

yeah, fuck Putin. Have I mentioned that?

his invasion of Ukraine is unwarranted.

I'd ask whether blame can be assigned unilaterally, or whether maybe there's blame to go around, and more importantly whether there's any end game of peace possible, but I honestly don't even wanna bother any more.

also whaddya think of that low cut blazer and no blouse look? That minister is prime.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:17 pm yeah, fuck Putin. Have I mentioned that?

yes, but only ever as an afterthought once you’ve been called out on it

I'd ask whether blame can be assigned unilaterally, or whether maybe there's blame to go around, and more importantly whether there's any end game of peace possible, but I honestly don't even wanna bother any more.

i said this several pages back, but Europe has seen relative peace (aside from putin’s aggressions) since the establishment of NATO…peace has been because of NATO, not in spite of it

also whaddya think of that low cut blazer and no blouse look? That minister is prime.

i’m a fan