Kansas Crimson

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:35 am

Until they find a way to transition to it without collapsing the medical sector and/or economy, I am fine with here change in stance on Medicare for all.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:37 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:31 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:03 am

It is true that Harris' plan includes elements that are along the lines of what you describe (and I would note that the whole point of a serious campaign is to win, which requires compromise and appealing outside your base).

yea.

I'm still left wondering whether the best move, though, is to compromise and make appeals outside your base, but to the right.

Is this really gonna pick up many otherwise-right-leaning votes for her? Or even many on-the-fence-undecided-moderate-centrist sorts of votes?

and part of that wonder is also wondering if taking any more progressive stances might attract, or better attract, votes outside Harris's base but to the left.

I absolutely do think that appealing toward the middle is a better strategy than appealing toward the fringe left. And I do not think it's a close call.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:43 am when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:03 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:43 am when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

I think this sort of glosses over some important things.

It is true that Harris' plan includes elements that are along the lines of what you describe (and I would note that the whole point of a serious campaign is to win, which requires compromise and appealing outside your base).

However, it is also true that Harris' plan includes MUCH more robust and varied paths to lawful immigration.

In other words, one might find the stick part of their plans substantially equally gross.

But only one of their plans even includes carrots.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:27 pm I dunno if things like being hesitant about issues like "Build The Wall" is "fringe left," or, just where Kamala and dems were four years ago, and/or up until this slant to the right in an apparent attempt to appeal toward the middle.

But I dunno if actual policies really matter that much in U.S. elections.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:38 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:43 am when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:43 am when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:39 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:03 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:43 am when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

I think this sort of glosses over some important things.

It is true that Harris' plan includes elements that are along the lines of what you describe (and I would note that the whole point of a serious campaign is to win, which requires compromise and appealing outside your base).

However, it is also true that Harris' plan includes MUCH more robust and varied paths to lawful immigration.

In other words, one might find the stick part of their plans substantially equally gross.

But only one of their plans even includes carrots.

Aren't you just assuming that her plan is to continue whatever Biden is doing?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:43 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:38 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:43 am when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:43 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:38 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:43 am when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:46 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:43 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:38 pm

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

OMG, did you seriously just give me a 30 second campaign ad whose grand total of statements on immigration are that she'll hire more Border agents and crack down on fentanyl as "Harris's border policy"?!?

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:42 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:27 pm I dunno if things like being hesitant about issues like "Build The Wall" is "fringe left," or, just where Kamala and dems were four years ago, and/or up until this slant to the right in an apparent attempt to appeal toward the middle.

But I dunno if actual policies really matter that much in U.S. elections.

How about, show us an example of Harris supporting Trump's wall plan, and let's talk about it with that in hand.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:46 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:43 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:38 pm

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

OMG, did you seriously just give me a 30 second campaign ad whose grand total of statements on immigration are that she'll hire more Border agents and crack down on fentanyl as "Harris's border policy"?!?

And if you read into that "a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs" then you're just choosing to project that into the discussion as it did not exist whatsoever in that ad. She was a prosecutor who sent actual cartel gang members to prison. That is in no way whatsoever labeling all immigrants as "a bunch of drug dealers and thugs". You're being completely disingenuous. Stop trying to shoehorn your bad take into things.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:28 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:35 am

Until they find a way to transition to it without collapsing the medical sector and/or economy, I am fine with here change in stance on Medicare for all.

Curious about this. Could you please elaborate?

Not necessarily disagreeing, just wanna understand better.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 2:00 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:46 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:43 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

OMG, did you seriously just give me a 30 second campaign ad whose grand total of statements on immigration are that she'll hire more Border agents and crack down on fentanyl as "Harris's border policy"?!?

And if you read into that "a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs" then you're just choosing to project that into the discussion as it did not exist whatsoever in that ad. She was a prosecutor who sent actual cartel gang members to prison. That is in no way whatsoever labeling all immigrants as "a bunch of drug dealers and thugs". You're being completely disingenuous. Stop trying to shoehorn your bad take into things.

bro but I'm just not sure the bad take here is mine.

While it mentions drug dealers and gang members in the context of immigrants at the border, does it do anything - anything at all - to humanize immigrants? Any concern for asylum-seekers? Anything about refugees? Anything, even, about how America is a nation of immigrants, and Kamala Harris herself is the child of immigrants?

I think, with the right messaging, there may be some ground to gain among progressives and immigrant/sympathetic to immigrant voters. Maybe even more so than any moderates who might be swayed by the rhetoric of getting "tougher" on immigrants.

Or - and speaking of bad takes - maybe I'm wrong, and anything less than the "tougher" rhetoric is actually just fringe left shit.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 2:46 pm What entire platform?

Don’t blame be cuz she’s shared little more on policy vision than a fucking 30 second ad, and some various other “tough” rhetoric in the campaign trail.