Kansas Crimson

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:25 am

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:53 am

jhawks99 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:47 am Better California than Florida.

Seems as if many people disagree with you, given that Florida's population is up for the eleventh consecutive year and California's is down for the third year in a row.

Yeah ok.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/farmers-in ... 00-people/

https://www.newsweek.com/florida-combat ... ge-1793928

Like I've said: the bill for getting high on culture war nonsense (very much including utter denial over climate change) is coming due. And it's gonna sting.

Sparko wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:09 pm Teachers are being abused by Red States. Indoctrinating means teaching actual facts in RW-speak. Fatuous arguments. Fatuous.

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:21 pm What is history about other than social issues? Memorizing dates?

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:21 pm What is history about other than social issues? Memorizing dates?

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:27 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:21 pm What is history about other than social issues? Memorizing dates?

I would note also that schools being daycares, ERs being primary care facilities, and so on...these things are the inevitable result of cutting off social programs at the knees. I believe that is, openly, a pub policy priority.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:33 pm that might be the smartest thing you’ve ever posted

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:31 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:21 pm What is history about other than social issues? Memorizing dates?

I think good teaching is teaching the material, not sharing your beliefs. In twenty plus years of teaching, I have always told my students that if they go away knowing my political and religious beliefs, I have failed at my job. My goal is for them to understand the theory to the level that they make their own decisions. What I think or believe is irrelevant.

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:35 pm

KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:33 pm that might be the smartest thing you’ve ever posted

I'm not nearly as dumb as you think I am.

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:44 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:31 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:21 pm What is history about other than social issues? Memorizing dates?

I think good teaching is teaching the material, not sharing your beliefs. In twenty plus years of teaching, I have always told my students that if they go away knowing my political and religious beliefs, I have failed at my job. My goal is for them to understand the theory to the level that they make their own decisions. What I think or believe is irrelevant.

I didn't say anything about sharing my beliefs. I'm talking about sharing the beliefs of those involved in the history you're teaching. Most kids leave high school thinking that the settlers treated the indigenous people like family.

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:57 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:44 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:31 pm

I think good teaching is teaching the material, not sharing your beliefs. In twenty plus years of teaching, I have always told my students that if they go away knowing my political and religious beliefs, I have failed at my job. My goal is for them to understand the theory to the level that they make their own decisions. What I think or believe is irrelevant.

I didn't say anything about sharing my beliefs. I'm talking about sharing the beliefs of those involved in the history you're teaching. Most kids leave high school thinking that the settlers treated the indigenous people like family.

I think you can do that without extrapolating to the degree that my older kids' teachers did. You can teach historical facts without telling students how to think about them.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:27 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:21 pm What is history about other than social issues? Memorizing dates?

I would note also that schools being daycares, ERs being primary care facilities, and so on...these things are the inevitable result of cutting off social programs at the knees. I believe that is, openly, a pub policy priority.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:59 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:57 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:44 pm

I didn't say anything about sharing my beliefs. I'm talking about sharing the beliefs of those involved in the history you're teaching. Most kids leave high school thinking that the settlers treated the indigenous people like family.

I think you can do that without extrapolating to the degree that my older kids' teachers did. You can teach historical facts without telling students how to think about them.

"Historical facts" does a lot of heavy lifting there. For example, there are many who do not think that systemic bias is a "historical fact" in our country's timeline.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 1:00 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:27 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:21 pm What is history about other than social issues? Memorizing dates?

I would note also that schools being daycares, ERs being primary care facilities, and so on...these things are the inevitable result of cutting off social programs at the knees. I believe that is, openly, a pub policy priority.

This is nutty. You can't go all "rOoT cAuSeS!" and then stop a third of the way back to the root.

Why -- say 50 years ago, prior to any social programs later hypothetically "cut off at the knees" -- were schools able to function as educational institutions and not day cares? Why were ER's NOT primary care facilities?

Social programs -- whatever their merit -- are responses to new social needs. If you're going to look for root causes, you can't stop at the programs. You have to look -- at the very least -- at what caused the perception that the programs were necessary. What caused the perceived crisis in the first place?

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 1:00 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:27 pm

defixione wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:21 pm What is history about other than social issues? Memorizing dates?

I would note also that schools being daycares, ERs being primary care facilities, and so on...these things are the inevitable result of cutting off social programs at the knees. I believe that is, openly, a pub policy priority.

This is nutty. You can't go all "rOoT cAuSeS!" and then stop a third of the way back to the root.

Why -- say 50 years ago, prior to any social programs later hypothetically "cut off at the knees" -- were schools able to function as educational institutions and not day cares? Why were ER's NOT primary care facilities?

Social programs -- whatever their merit -- are responses to new social needs. If you're going to look for root causes, you can't stop at the programs. You have to look -- at the very least -- at what caused the perception that the programs were necessary. What caused the perceived crisis in the first place?

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 1:12 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:59 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:57 pm

I think you can do that without extrapolating to the degree that my older kids' teachers did. You can teach historical facts without telling students how to think about them.

"Historical facts" does a lot of heavy lifting there. For example, there are many who do not think that systemic bias is a "historical fact" in our country's timeline.

Agreed. But the larger question is, then, what to do about it. When teachers start preaching that all White people are, by virtue of the color of their skin, culpable for bias that took place sixty years ago and that they owe something to people of color today because of it, I think that's taking things too far.

Recent scenario: as Department Chair, I fielded multiple student complaints against a Black female professor in my department. She was, by multiple accounts, being verbally abusive hostile to students. When they complained to her, she said that their concerns were not valid because of their "White fragility" and that they were just threatened because she was "a strong, educated Black woman." The irony was that two of the students who came to me with complaints were also Black, and six of the eight were female.

The bottom line is that they wanted to be taught counseling theory - as the name of the course promised they would - and they were instead being given multiple discourses on social justice, racism, White fragility, and chauvinism. When they expressed their concerns, she doubled down and began using class time to berate them, telling the students that she could do whatever she wanted "because I am a protected class." When they said they were going to file a complaint, she told them to go ahead "because Dr. Livin is White and can't do anything about it." When I talked to her about it, she readily admitted doing so said she was justified because of systemic racism.

Too far.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 1:22 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 1:12 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:59 pm

"Historical facts" does a lot of heavy lifting there. For example, there are many who do not think that systemic bias is a "historical fact" in our country's timeline.

Agreed. But the larger question is, then, what to do about it. When teachers start preaching that all White people are, by virtue of the color of their skin, culpable for bias that took place sixty years ago and that they owe something to people of color today because of it, I think that's taking things too far.

Recent scenario: as Department Chair, I fielded multiple student complaints against a Black female professor in my department. She was, by multiple accounts, being verbally abusive hostile to students. When they complained to her, she said that their concerns were not valid because of their "White fragility" and that they were just threatened because she was "a strong, educated Black woman." The irony was that two of the students who came to me with complaints were also Black, and six of the eight were female.

The bottom line is that they wanted to be taught counseling theory - as the name of the course promised they would - and they were instead being given multiple discourses on social justice, racism, White fragility, and chauvinism. When they expressed their concerns, she doubled down and began using class time to berate them, telling the students that she could do whatever she wanted "because I am a protected class." When they said they were going to file a complaint, she told them to go ahead "because Dr. Livin is White and can't do anything about it." When I talked to her about it, she readily admitted doing so said she was justified because of systemic racism.

Too far.

I don't disagree. But nor do I think that you can really teach the "historical facts" of American history without addressing race.

It's all very complicated and fraught - so it's no small wonder that there are fewer and fewer people who want to make below-average incomes to teach.