Kansas Crimson

and for the record, i like/liked ernest/zuby more than i do HD

it's easy to 'scream' bias since i've expressed a displeasurable stance towards HD. So hearing you, and others continuously drum 'your bias is showing' is pedantic as best.

I do think Zuby was still probably leaving. I don't think Udeh was going anywhere, at all.

Definitely no way for me to know that for certain.

What I do know from certain is that and HD-centered team got blown out worse than any KU team I can remember (repeatedly), had a horrible team offense, and one of the worst (the) in Self's tenure.

Before we saw him plugged in with this group, pretty much everyone in college basketball thought HD was a great get and the best big in the portal. Self obviously thought so too. I don't blame Self for wanting him.

Back2Lawrence wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:17 pm What I do know from certain is that and HD-centered team got blown out worse than any KU team I can remember (repeatedly), had a horrible team offense, and one of the worst (the) in Self's tenure.

and i’ll keep calling it bias when you seemingly intentionally leave out the depth and injury issues

seriously?

With all the talk about offensive production and liability on defense, double-digit rebounding should not be discounted.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:20 pm

Back2Lawrence wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:17 pm What I do know from certain is that and HD-centered team got blown out worse than any KU team I can remember (repeatedly), had a horrible team offense, and one of the worst (the) in Self's tenure.

and i’ll keep calling it bias when you seemingly intentionally leave out the depth and injury issues

seriously?

The injury issues say HD had less impact than not. Because, when McCullar left the floor, the offense completely left...and the defense became HORRIBLE.

And yeah, would all those players have left last year? So what would our depth look like? Development? Growth?

What I know for sure is that HD didn't seem to affect anything in a net-positive way. Unless those that argue he had great value are doing so to claim we might have been a bubble team without him. Sure. But more likely without McCullar, based on what happened when he went down, right?

LOL @ your last line. For real. Like really LOL. Like fuck off (in a non-aggressive way, obviously) would be my reply there.

the fuck off would be because yeah, we (I) say I don't like HD..but then you say that bias is the reason I have other biases and make omissions? I suppose it's the reason why people don't tell the truth when they are trying to make a point.

That was my initial mistake, I suppose.

AlOerter wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:21 pm With all the talk about offensive production and liability on defense, double-digit rebounding should not be discounted.

he had 5 against Gonzaga, a team with legit size and strength inside.

A lot of minutes on short rest had something to do with lower numbers and a bad 2nd half. Gonzaga had an easy 1st round game and plenty of rest for the starters.

AlOerter wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:44 pm A lot of minutes on short rest had something to do with lower numbers and a bad 2nd half. Gonzaga had an easy 1st round game and plenty of rest for the starters.

we had samford....and a 20 pt 2nd half lead. Not like we had a real tough one and Gonzaga had a cakewalk.....we just had no....leadership on the floor, or mental fortitude, and collapsed like we did with leads all year.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:04 pm Points over Replacement Per Game is mostly driven by offense.
It measures how many points a player contributes to his team over the course of a game over what a replacement player would provide. It's adjusted for strength of opponent, pace of play, and also a usage adjustment as well. It really only measures offensive contribution.

"...the basic idea is to estimate how many more points per game a player creates than a hypothetical "replacement player" would."

But what I'm asking has to do with the inputs and adjustments.

You are using this rate stat - along with some upward fudgery in your argument's favor - to say that Dickinson is two points per game better than Udeh, offensively.

What I'm asking is, fudgery aside, how that rate stat is getting to where it's getting.

For example, is Udeh getting a big bump in the rate stat because the raw numbers he's putting up (on which the adjustments are applied), he's putting up in limited minutes (also meaning against bench guys)?

This is a way in which adjusted stats do NOT tell the whole story. Another of course is that adjusted stats that are individual-stat driven do not tell much of the story about how that player affects the rest of what's going on on the court.

It matters, a lot, that you don't have to even think about Udeh or Zuby as they get away from the basket. But that only makes its way into Udeh's and Zuby's individual stats in the most circuitous ways.

This is all somewhat asinine, but if you want to keep coming back to this statistic as support for the notion that our offense would only decline somewhat, I want to better understand the statistic.

AlOerter wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:44 pm A lot of minutes on short rest had something to do with lower numbers and a bad 2nd half. Gonzaga had an easy 1st round game and plenty of rest for the starters.

This is very true. A short term around for a short bench. We played really well offensively in the 1st half against Gonzaga. One of our best halves all year. We just ran out of gas in the 2nd half and got blown out l

randylahey wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:04 pm

AlOerter wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:44 pm A lot of minutes on short rest had something to do with lower numbers and a bad 2nd half. Gonzaga had an easy 1st round game and plenty of rest for the starters.

This is very true. A short term around for a short bench. We played really well offensively in the 1st half against Gonzaga. One of our best halves all year. We just ran out of gas in the 2nd half and got blown out l

I'm not saying you guys are wrong but......
What about all the teams that won their conference tournaments playing multiple consecutive days?
I guess only the teams that lost would feel a need to use a lack of rest and short benches for excuses.

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:18 pm

randylahey wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:04 pm

AlOerter wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:44 pm A lot of minutes on short rest had something to do with lower numbers and a bad 2nd half. Gonzaga had an easy 1st round game and plenty of rest for the starters.

This is very true. A short term around for a short bench. We played really well offensively in the 1st half against Gonzaga. One of our best halves all year. We just ran out of gas in the 2nd half and got blown out l

I'm not saying you guys are wrong but......
What about all the teams that won their conference tournaments playing multiple consecutive days?
I guess only the teams that lost would feel a need to use a lack of rest and short benches for excuses.

I think you're looking at this through the wrong lens.

The issue with playing four guys >32mpg each isn't one game, or one weekend or one tournament even. It's that, over the course of a season, it wears guys down AND inhibits development of other guys AND makes you easier to scout.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:25 pm

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:18 pm

randylahey wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:04 pm

This is very true. A short term around for a short bench. We played really well offensively in the 1st half against Gonzaga. One of our best halves all year. We just ran out of gas in the 2nd half and got blown out l

I'm not saying you guys are wrong but......
What about all the teams that won their conference tournaments playing multiple consecutive days?
I guess only the teams that lost would feel a need to use a lack of rest and short benches for excuses.

I think you're looking at this through the wrong lens.

The issue with playing four guys >32mpg each isn't one game, or one weekend or one tournament even. It's that, over the course of a season, it wears guys down AND inhibits development of other guys AND makes you easier to scout.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree with that 100%. It was obvious our guys were worn down and I feel we had players on our bench who could have and should have contributed more during the season. Self seemed to have admitted in hindsight he regrets not doing things differently.

I'm just wondering what is the ultimate measuring stick that determines why fatigue is a more valid excuse for one team and a less valid excuse for another.
I'm not smart enough and I am too lazy to figure out what championship teams were deep and which ones weren't.
I'm going to move on from giving it too much thought.

Barttorvik adjusts for usage.
Specifically calls out problems with high efficiency for limited minutes and this stat adjusts for it.
Go read up.

And of course I made an upward trajectory in my favor—it’s part of my whole argument that Udeh would be better here!

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:25 pm I think you're looking at this through the wrong lens.

The issue with playing four guys >32mpg each isn't one game, or one weekend or one tournament even. It's that, over the course of a season, it wears guys down AND inhibits development of other guys AND makes you easier to scout.

Correct on all points IMHO.

I don't have a problem with Self bringing in top players, whether it is through the portal or high school recruits. That's his job. The problem I see is that players don't want to compete for playing time, or aren't willing to stay and get better. I am talking about you Ernest and Zuby, and others who left. Stay put, earn your time, get better in a top program, and maybe you will make the NBA, instead of transferring to an inferior program which won't develop you as well. Be part of a winning program, and put in the work.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:11 pm Barttorvik adjusts for usage.
Specifically calls out problems with high efficiency for limited minutes and this stat adjusts for it.
Go read up.

And of course I made an upward trajectory in my favor—it’s part of my whole argument that Udeh would be better here!

Ha. Recognize the good humor. Nothing more from me, tonight anyway.

Three out of four Final 4 teams have a large, slow starting center.

They defend pick and rolls differently than we do or something?