The Great Outdoors

[TDub]

Cougars, on the other hand, are significantly more substantial in numbers and very rarely seen. When I am out there alone I worry more about a cougar than a wolf. Those damn things are special. You rarely see them until its too late but I guarantee they have watched me many times.

[ousdahl]

I’ve heard state wildlife guys suggest states underreport wolf populations so as to avoid having to deal with all the federal endangered species red tape

[KUTradition]

is the thinking that suppressing numbers will get them more resources?

[KUTradition]

I will also say.....there are more wolves than the state admits. I have seen them, everyone i know that cuts firewood or hunts has run into them. They are larger in number than the official record.

i don’t disagree, but these kinds of arguments are always funny to me (no offense)

you’re saying that the official state count is low, right? by how much? and based on, what, anecdotal reports from people who would benefit from more lax regulations on killing wolves?

do you think the biologists are artificially suppressing the reported numbers? or is it just that their methods are insufficient?

I dont think they're artificially keeping them low necessarily but I do believe they are low. I think its hard to track that sort of thing accurately and perhaps they are only tracking collared wolves. I havent checked recently but for several years the official count for this region was 7 wolves. Ive seen them numerous times, usually in pairs and find it highly unlikely that of all the thousands of acres I randomly would come across 2 of the 7 of them in my path.


I have a buddy that was up scouting for elk season and has several videos of a pack across the draw from him.

A guy I cut wood with sees them fairly regularly.

My brother in law has video of October when his elk camp was circled by at least 4 wolves

Yes, these are all anecdotal stories that I dont have any scientific research behind. But the sightings and interactions are numerous enough that it would be absolutely stunning for the number of wolves in the official count to be spotted so frequently.

i’m seeing 175 being listed as the official count for the state, in 21 separate packs (all as of 2021)

that number is in line with what might be expected given average territory size and the size of the state (but obviously wolves don’t recognize state boundaries)

[KUTradition]

another bison goring in Yellowstone

people are dumb

[jhawks99]

Don't eff with bison.

Words to live by.

[KUTradition]

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2022/03/ ... -meme/amp/

[Cascadia]

i don’t disagree, but these kinds of arguments are always funny to me (no offense)

you’re saying that the official state count is low, right? by how much? and based on, what, anecdotal reports from people who would benefit from more lax regulations on killing wolves?

do you think the biologists are artificially suppressing the reported numbers? or is it just that their methods are insufficient?

I dont think they're artificially keeping them low necessarily but I do believe they are low. I think its hard to track that sort of thing accurately and perhaps they are only tracking collared wolves. I havent checked recently but for several years the official count for this region was 7 wolves. Ive seen them numerous times, usually in pairs and find it highly unlikely that of all the thousands of acres I randomly would come across 2 of the 7 of them in my path.


I have a buddy that was up scouting for elk season and has several videos of a pack across the draw from him.

A guy I cut wood with sees them fairly regularly.

My brother in law has video of October when his elk camp was circled by at least 4 wolves

Yes, these are all anecdotal stories that I dont have any scientific research behind. But the sightings and interactions are numerous enough that it would be absolutely stunning for the number of wolves in the official count to be spotted so frequently.

i’m seeing 175 being listed as the official count for the state, in 21 separate packs (all as of 2021)

that number is in line with what might be expected given average territory size and the size of the state (but obviously wolves don’t recognize state boundaries)

lol, yeah, 175 a lot different than 7.

[ousdahl]

is the thinking that suppressing numbers will get them more resources?

I think it's more so just that state wildlife guys don't want the feds loading them up with red tape and micromanaging every little thing.

[KUTradition]

is the thinking that suppressing numbers will get them more resources?

I think it's more so just that state wildlife guys don't want the feds loading them up with red tape and micromanaging every little thing.

right…i just don’t see the connection between the two

unless they’re trying to hide that a given species occurs there at all, it makes more sense in my mind to want large, healthy populations of endangered species in order to keep the feds off one’s back

the more “at risk” a population is, the highler the likelihood of fed intervention…unless i’m missing something

in Utah, DWR/DNR does everything it can to sustain and support populations in order to prevent them from declining to a level that would trigger the feds. now, i only have direct knowledge of this strategy as it pertains to aquatic species and reptiles/amphibians, but i would think the same would apply to any species

[ousdahl]

yeah, I don't entirely understand it either.

a fishing buddy of mine sits on the state wildlife commission, and has a cabin up near RMNP. He maintains wolves have been up around that area for years.

Another story suggests that when tourists claim to have seen a wolf, park rangers unofficially explain to yall that there are some "very large coyotes" in the park.

the CO department of wildlife website has a page to report wolf sightings (and grizzly sightings too), even though they maintain there are no grizzlies in CO, and are only very recently acknowledging the presence of wolves.

I think it's that state officials think if they admit there ARE such animals in the area, the feds come in and take over the wildlife management operations with their own bureaucratic machine, and the state guys would rather stick to their own devices.

[KUTradition]

i totally get that strategy (but don’t agree with it)

i just don’t understand downplaying their presence when/if they’ve already been documented

[KUTradition]

i’ll also add that in the right environments and circumstances, it’s quite easy to mistake a coyote for a wolf

growing up in the midwest and having only seen wolves in person a limited number of times, my first impression of Yellowstone coyotes was that they were wolves. they seemed to be twice the size of Kansas coyotes

[TDub]

I dont think they're artificially keeping them low necessarily but I do believe they are low. I think its hard to track that sort of thing accurately and perhaps they are only tracking collared wolves. I havent checked recently but for several years the official count for this region was 7 wolves. Ive seen them numerous times, usually in pairs and find it highly unlikely that of all the thousands of acres I randomly would come across 2 of the 7 of them in my path.


I have a buddy that was up scouting for elk season and has several videos of a pack across the draw from him.

A guy I cut wood with sees them fairly regularly.

My brother in law has video of October when his elk camp was circled by at least 4 wolves

Yes, these are all anecdotal stories that I dont have any scientific research behind. But the sightings and interactions are numerous enough that it would be absolutely stunning for the number of wolves in the official count to be spotted so frequently.

i’m seeing 175 being listed as the official count for the state, in 21 separate packs (all as of 2021)

that number is in line with what might be expected given average territory size and the size of the state (but obviously wolves don’t recognize state boundaries)

lol, yeah, 175 a lot different than 7.

I was speaking of the region I frequent clearly. Not the state. I dont trek across the eagle caps often..... But you dont want discussion you want cow pie flinging.

[TDub]

i’ll also add that in the right environments and circumstances, it’s quite easy to mistake a coyote for a wolf

growing up in the midwest and having only seen wolves in person a limited number of times, my first impression of Yellowstone coyotes was that they were wolves. they seemed to be twice the size of Kansas coyotes

If you mean the people that want selfies with bison...yea they might confuse a coyote with a wolf. Its a significant difference between the two for people who have been around them both.

[ousdahl]

much of the modern view on wolves is a holdover from a previous time when conservation as we know it wasn't even a thing. A natural ecosystem's apex predators were viewed as nothing more than a threat to rancher economics.

Without ever asking why a bunch of domestic livestock are suddenly grazing over previously undisturbed wilderness, the prevailing view became that any livestock lost to predation should be considered total economic disaster.

And, again without any consideration toward balancing the interests of conservation or ecosystems, the prevailing policy became to completely exterminate every single wolf (and other apex predator) for the sake of grazing livestock. The "shoot, shovel, shut up" mentality against predators persists among ranchers today.

[japhy]

But it was "so hot in Texas". One of my neighbors in the Empire posted video of the rain and hail that afternoon. It would have been brutal at 11,000 feet without any cold weather or rain gear. A friend and I had a plan to climb Blanca years ago. Every year for four years, just before we headed to Colorado, someone we knew died on or near that mountain. Then we read that there were more fatalities on that peak than any other in the State. We decided we had better things to do with our summers after that.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hikers-had-n ... 09098.html

[ousdahl]

story of yall's life.

10 bucks says they were wearing jean shorts.

[japhy]

Years ago I was fishing at Trapper's Lake in the Flattops Wilderness. We were leaving to head out to Dutch John to fish the Green River and stopped at the Trapper's Lake Lodge for breakfast. There was a group of four telling their funny story to the guy at the front desk of the lodge. The day before they drove up to Stillwater Res from Avon to do a little hikin'. They got up one top of the flat tops and realized they had not paid any attention to landmarks along the way, they left the trail. They had no map, compass, no extra water or extra clothes and it started to get dark and was raining. So they eventually found themselves on the edge of cliffs overlooking Trapper's Lake and saw some lights down below and followed the lights to the lodge in their shorts and t-shirts and tennis shoes. It was impressively dumb luck as that may be the only building within a 20-30 miles radius of that spot. As they were telling the story the guy at the desk and I told them, "you know you could have died up there last night, you got damn lucky". They thought that was funny and then wanted to know if anyone was driving back towards Stillwater and could give them a ride. I told them I was heading in the other direction, and although it was 6 miles overland to Stillwater it was close to 100 miles one way by dirt road to get to Stillwater from here. At 25 mph that was a whole day of driving and I was planning to be in Utah in time for dinner tonight. "We will pay for your gas!". Yes, but you can't give me back the day of vacation I will lose if I drive you there and I have a reservation with a guide at 7:00 AM tomorrow morning on the Green River that I will never get back, so good luck folks. They were pissed that I wasn't going to disrupt my trip to accommodate their stupidity. The guy at the front desk looked at them and said, "don't look at me." Those Texans learned a valuable lesson that day, the mountains don't give a fuck.

[ousdahl]

how was the fishing at Trapper's lake?

that's been on the bucket list for a while. been told it's among the better spots for a chance at a trophy cutthroat.