Kansas Crimson

Michael Jordan is the best argument against lebron being the goat. What would happen if those two matched up? Lebron is bigger strong more powerful and would have his way with him. And dont tell me Jordan would be too fast or explosive. I remember watching lebron switch assignments to young prime mvp form Derek rose and shut him down in the eastern conference finals

Michael's team accomplishments shouldn't be overplayed. When Michael stepped away from the bulls they still won over 60 games. They were really good still without him. When lebron left the cavs or Miami, they won like 20 games the season he left and fell straight to the bottom of the league

I mean, you can say LeBron is the GOAT because of the things you mentioned in the post above the one i'm quoting but gtfo with this:

"Lebron is bigger strong more powerful and would have his way with him."

I think it's going to be very similar to football debate that will happen over the next decade.

I think Mahomes is the best player to ever play QB, but Tom Brady was the better winner, so far, with Super Bowl titles.

I think LeBron is the best to do it, but Jordan was the more accomplished player in terms of titles.

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:21 am I could see why someone would move LeBron to GOAT because of this. No, he’s not a different player than he was the moment before he broke the all time points record but Jordan wasn’t a different player the moment before he got his sixth ring which is the standard leading argument for him.

You MAY have kind of contradicted yourself there. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
To me, scoring champ > sixth ring (or any number of rings) when considering GOAT.
Not sure why someone/anyone would say Jordan winning 6 rings would be the leading argument (and/or difference0 between him being considered GOAT or not.
To the people who say IF when discussing Jordan (such as - IF Jordan played in as many games as LeBron he would have broken Kareem's record), it reminds me of those who criticize artists and say - I could have done that. Right, maybe you could have - but you didn't.

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:03 am WTF?
Can't help but question if this is a lack of "chemistry" on display.

What was it?

That linky no worky

"Not sure why someone/anyone would say Jordan winning 6 rings would be the leading argument"

This is very much the leading argument for many Jordan enthusiasts when differentiating LeBron and Jordan.
They point to the rings Jordan has won.

Windhorst said it well this morning...

90-98 MJ was the most dominant stretch ever. If that makes him your GOAT, then it is hard to disagree with that.

Conversely, nobody has ever been as dominant for as long as LeBron has the last 20+ years. The 9 finals on 10 years is insane. The stats he has accumulated are insane. He's going to finish near the top of so many categories all time by the time he is done. If that makes him your GOAT, it is hard to argue against that.

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:45 am

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:28 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:59 pm congrats Lebron

but this is ridiculous

Stopping the game for that long was absolutely ridiculous. They could have done all that after the game.

Everyone know there would be pomp and circumstance pretty much immediately after he did it. I feel it should have been the first whistle after he did it but my opinion doesn't matter. My question is the refs blew the whistle right after he made the shot. According to the box score there was no timeout. Right or wrong, I feel the Lakers should have called one - or at least been charged with one.

Speaking of "ridiculous", losing to the Thunder at home in a game in which Isaiah freaking Joe and Mike freaking Muscala were factors was absolutely ridiculous.
Can someone please explain to me why Darvin Ham has a job being the HC of the Lakers? He may be worse than Luke Walton.

I get that it’s a yuge milestone.

But yea, I’ve never watched a game in which refs blew the whistle just to let one player celebrate, get his wife and kids out there, get all the media out there, parade around former players and celebs and stuff, get the commissioner out there for a speech at center court, mid game, coincidentally all while the celebrating player and home team were getting their asses kicked.

Eventually Beav and I got bored of it all and wanted to just see some Fing hoops being played.

We switched to New Mexico-Nevada, two mid majors who are prob both tournament teams, back and forth game, down to the wire, ending on a buzzer beater that hung on the rim for what seemed like for her until it finally fell thru with :0.1 on the clock…good shit!

A lot of what happened was AFTER the 3rd quarter ended....but I thought most of it should have waited until after the game.

If there’s an argument out of this against the Lebron goat talk, it’s that maybe Lebron was too caught up in the celebration. He’s exactly the kinda dood who seems to LOVE stuff like stopping mid-game to get a mic in his face.

other goat candidates may have shrugged off the individual attention fest and focused on trying to just get the W.

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:25 am I think it's going to be very similar to football debate that will happen over the next decade.

I think Mahomes is the best player to ever play QB, but Tom Brady was the better winner, so far, with Super Bowl titles.

I think LeBron is the best to do it, but Jordan was the more accomplished player in terms of titles.

If Mahomes stands in his own way like Lebron has, I think he's toast in that debate. Like Lebron should be in this debate.

I think it's pretty prophetic that Lebron breaks the all-time scoring record during a home loss against a team they are fighting with for one of the last play-in tournament spots.

randylahey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:55 am Michael Jordan is the best argument against lebron being the goat. What would happen if those two matched up? Lebron is bigger strong more powerful and would have his way with him. And dont tell me Jordan would be too fast or explosive. I remember watching lebron switch assignments to young prime mvp form Derek rose and shut him down in the eastern conference finals

Michael's team accomplishments shouldn't be overplayed. When Michael stepped away from the bulls they still won over 60 games. They were really good still without him. When lebron left the cavs or Miami, they won like 20 games the season he left and fell straight to the bottom of the league

You yourself allude to basketball being a team game in your second paragraph so those two matching up against each other would be an interesting parameter to determine GOAT but I'm not so sure it would be the biggest factor.

Here are my responses to and my arguments for both players in regards to your first paragraph.
LeBron -
It's kind of funny that I have no problem when people say LeBron is the better ALL around player but when they say it I then question is LeBron really the better offensive player? I don't believe he is the better defensive player. Meanwhile, I can't say I feel he isn't the better player. Kind of bizarre. Right?
LeBron > Jordan in a lot of statistical categories. While I often say stats don't tell the whole story - they don't lie either. +1 LeBron.
All that being said, I believe LeBron would probably put up better "numbers" against Jordan than Jordan would put up against LeBron.

Jordan -
LeBron playing defense on Derrick Rose has very little if not nothing to do with how he would defend Jordan.
Yes, LeBron is bigger and stronger than MJ but do you think MJ didn't play great defense against strong guys? I feel Jordan was a better defender than LeBron.
Yes, I'll tell Jordan would be too fast and/or explosive for LeBron. He was too fast and explosive for everyone he played against. Other players have been too fast and explosive for LeBron who didn't have MJ's skills.
MJ had a focus and determination that I feel LeBron doesn't match. That's not to say LeBron doesn't have a focus and determination but I don't feel it's equal to Jordan's.

What’s the Dolphins QB sitch like?

Heaven forbid Mahomes take his talents to South Beach.

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:41 am "Not sure why someone/anyone would say Jordan winning 6 rings would be the leading argument"

This is very much the leading argument for many Jordan enthusiasts when differentiating LeBron and Jordan.
They point to the rings Jordan has won.

Sure I feel it has a bearing on his greatness but it's foolish to think rings should be the #1 factor.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:39 am

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:03 am WTF?
Can't help but question if this is a lack of "chemistry" on display.

What was it?

That linky no worky

Sorry.
He's sitting on his ass looking like he didn't care when the GOAT broke the scoring record.
People will probably defend him by saying he was tired or injured - but like I said, he looked like he didn't give a shit. To me, that = poor teammate. That's just me of course.

Here it is…

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:39 am

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:03 am WTF?
Can't help but question if this is a lack of "chemistry" on display.

What was it?

That linky no worky

People think AD didn't celebrate enough because he wasn't standing for before the shot LeBron made to break the record.

The video conveniently cuts off right before he stands up.

Not sure why people expected AD to celebrate like HE won a championship for LeBron breaking a record, especially when AD was having a shit game and the Lakers were losing an important game. But whatever. People love to make something out of nothing.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:57 am If there’s an argument out of this against the Lebron goat talk, it’s that maybe Lebron was too caught up in the celebration. He’s exactly the kinda dood who seems to LOVE stuff like stopping mid-game to get a mic in his face.

other goat candidates may have shrugged off the individual attention fest and focused on trying to just get the W.

Lulz.

There haven't really been many moments like that. And when there are, the games get stopped, and the player is celebrated.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:57 am If there’s an argument out of this against the Lebron goat talk, it’s that maybe Lebron was too caught up in the celebration. He’s exactly the kinda dood who seems to LOVE stuff like stopping mid-game to get a mic in his face.

other goat candidates may have shrugged off the individual attention fest and focused on trying to just get the W.

Pure speculation since the only other person being discussed for GOAT is Jordan, who never sniffed this record.

James becomes just the third person to hold the all time NBA scoring crown in the last 56 years. He will also finish Top 4 all time in assists, Top 5 all time in steals and Top 25 all time in rebounds.

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:02 am

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:41 am "Not sure why someone/anyone would say Jordan winning 6 rings would be the leading argument"

This is very much the leading argument for many Jordan enthusiasts when differentiating LeBron and Jordan.
They point to the rings Jordan has won.

Sure I feel it has a bearing on his greatness but it's foolish to think rings should be the #1 factor.

If rings are the #1 factor then Bill Russell is the GOAT as he has nearly twice as many as Jordan.

If you look at individual factors you can make arguments for guys besides lebron. But if you consider everything, lebron has the best overall resume, is the best overall all around player, and why I think he's become the goat.

Best resume, best talent, best player. By taking the all time points record he mightve solidified it