Kansas Crimson

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 11:16 pm

pdub wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 5:06 pm But nothing likely would have happened.

Threatening someone verbally isn’t enough for him to have done what he did. Not in NYCs subways. Sorry.

If he started a physical confrontation, that would change things. If he had attacked Penny, I would likely be on Pennys side.

Does anyone actually know what did happen?

I mean, if he was physically attacking people, or in their face threatening to, I see how Penny could have tried to get him off them and accidentally choked him to death. And there are a lot of details just within there that are unknown - did he keep choking him after he stopped moving?

Everyone just jumps to conclusions without knowing anything. But the randy side is really sick. To know nothing and say it's fine because the victim has a bad history? That's fucked up. Damn near evil.

Here's one version, there are multiple other stories that say he was held in the chokehold for ~ 15 minutes:

...In the minutes leading up to the deadly chokehold, Neely had been “acting erratically,” but he did not attack anyone on the train, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a witness who recorded the altercation on video.

As soon as Neely got on the train, he started yelling about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Vazquez told CNN.

Before he was killed, Neely said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,” according to Vazquez.

At some point, Neely took off his coat and threw it on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez said.

As the yelling continued, many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other parts of the train car. Neely did not appear to be armed or looking to attack anyone, Vazquez told CNN.

Then a rider came up behind Neely and put him in a chokehold, with the two eventually falling to the floor, said Vazquez. Neely did not interact with that passenger at all prior to the attack, Vazquez continued.

In the video recorded by Vazquez, Neely and the other man are seen on the floor of a subway car with the man’s arm wrapped around Neely’s neck. The two men were on the floor for about seven minutes, Vazquez said, adding he started recording about three or four minutes after the chokehold began.

At some point, two other passengers approached Neely and the man holding him down. One appeared to be mediating the situation while the other seemed to help the man restrain Neely, according to Vazquez.

After a while, Vazquez noticed Neely stopped moving and talking, he said.

When police officers arrived at the subway station in Lower Manhattan before 2:30 p.m. Monday, they administered first aid to an unconscious Neely. He was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead later in the afternoon, according to a law enforcement source and an NYPD spokesperson.

CNN has not been able to independently confirm what happened leading up to the incident or how long Neely was restrained...

randylahey wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 3:08 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 3:00 pm

randylahey wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 2:49 pm

Stop lol. You are brainwashed. It was not murder. If Jordan neely was just minding his own business that day, and someone comes and chokes him out, then we would have a story. But that isn't what happened and we all know it

Please provide evidence Neely was the initial aggressor

Eyewitness testimony

by the very eyewitness testimony you provide, there's nothing here to suggest an extended choke hold was an appropriate use of force.

If, say, Neely shoved someone first, a "reasonable person" may be legally permitted to shove back, as some matter of self defense.

But, that same reasonable person standard likely suggests if someone shoves you, you can legally shove back, but you can't shove back then start repeatedly punching and kicking and biting and throwing bows too.

At some point, you're no longer acting out of any reasonable self defense, you're the aggressor who is escalating the situation - even if he shoved first!

But, again, even by your own evidence, there's nothing to suggest Neely was the aggressor. Homeless people say freaky shit all the time, but that doesn't make it appropriate to respond with sustained lethal aggression.

But, for the sake of message boarding, let's give your argument the benefit of the doubt. Say whatever Neely said WAS enough to warrant Penny's response of force. Even if so, there's only so much force that could legally be considered reasonable. At some point, Penny's use of force could legally be considered excessive.

So, at what point is that? Quantitatively, 30 seconds? 2 or 3 minutes? maybe 5? Qualitatively - it's something more like, once whatever threat Neely may have posed was no longer a threat. So when's that? Maybe when he was physically pinned down? Maybe when he might have said something George Floyd-ish like, "I can't breathe." Maybe when he defecated? Maybe when he stopped moving?

the point is, at some point, Penny's actions were legally no longer reasonable, claims of self-defense go out the window, and the "good Samaritan" narrative becomes rather a question of whether Penny was actually the aggressor who escalated, and sustained, a situation - of a homeless man saying freaky shit on the subway, into a situation of lethal force.

I'm trying to approach this in terms of a legal argument, like a prosecutor would...not that I finished law school.

But, despite the NYPD dragging their feet for days about bringing an arrest, even while arresting protesters calling for justice, and brutalizing vigils in Neely's memory; the prosecutor felt it was legally more appropriate to bring charges against Penny.

I wonder what the dood "mediating the situation" consisted of.

if it's someone saying something like, "bro the homeless guy is having trouble breathing, maybe ease up on your chokehold before you kill him," a la the bystander to Derek Chauvin, well...look how that worked out for Chauvin.

Feral wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 6:49 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 11:16 pm

pdub wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 5:06 pm But nothing likely would have happened.

Threatening someone verbally isn’t enough for him to have done what he did. Not in NYCs subways. Sorry.

If he started a physical confrontation, that would change things. If he had attacked Penny, I would likely be on Pennys side.

Does anyone actually know what did happen?

I mean, if he was physically attacking people, or in their face threatening to, I see how Penny could have tried to get him off them and accidentally choked him to death. And there are a lot of details just within there that are unknown - did he keep choking him after he stopped moving?

Everyone just jumps to conclusions without knowing anything. But the randy side is really sick. To know nothing and say it's fine because the victim has a bad history? That's fucked up. Damn near evil.

Here's one version, there are multiple other stories that say he was held in the chokehold for ~ 15 minutes:

...In the minutes leading up to the deadly chokehold, Neely had been “acting erratically,” but he did not attack anyone on the train, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a witness who recorded the altercation on video.

As soon as Neely got on the train, he started yelling about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Vazquez told CNN.

Before he was killed, Neely said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,” according to Vazquez.

At some point, Neely took off his coat and threw it on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez said.

As the yelling continued, many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other parts of the train car. Neely did not appear to be armed or looking to attack anyone, Vazquez told CNN.

Then a rider came up behind Neely and put him in a chokehold, with the two eventually falling to the floor, said Vazquez. Neely did not interact with that passenger at all prior to the attack, Vazquez continued.

In the video recorded by Vazquez, Neely and the other man are seen on the floor of a subway car with the man’s arm wrapped around Neely’s neck. The two men were on the floor for about seven minutes, Vazquez said, adding he started recording about three or four minutes after the chokehold began.

At some point, two other passengers approached Neely and the man holding him down. One appeared to be mediating the situation while the other seemed to help the man restrain Neely, according to Vazquez.

After a while, Vazquez noticed Neely stopped moving and talking, he said.

When police officers arrived at the subway station in Lower Manhattan before 2:30 p.m. Monday, they administered first aid to an unconscious Neely. He was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead later in the afternoon, according to a law enforcement source and an NYPD spokesperson.

CNN has not been able to independently confirm what happened leading up to the incident or how long Neely was restrained...

This is more or less what I'm talking about - by lionizing (and paying!) vigilantes like Rittenhouse and Neely, and gleefully embracing stand-your-ground laws as who-I-get-to-shoot-and-with-what permission structures, and enacting laws not just allowing but encouraging private enforcement of abortion laws...

...the right simply is anti-rule-of-law, anti-LEO and pro-vigilante.

You do these things over and over in a sample size of 330 million (0.01% of which being twice the capacity of AFH), and with overheated rhetoric and guns flowing like wine...this is how very bad shit happens.

And the randies of the world are just asking questions, just pointing things out, just researching for themselves.

Feral wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 6:49 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 11:16 pm

pdub wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 5:06 pm But nothing likely would have happened.

Threatening someone verbally isn’t enough for him to have done what he did. Not in NYCs subways. Sorry.

If he started a physical confrontation, that would change things. If he had attacked Penny, I would likely be on Pennys side.

Does anyone actually know what did happen?

I mean, if he was physically attacking people, or in their face threatening to, I see how Penny could have tried to get him off them and accidentally choked him to death. And there are a lot of details just within there that are unknown - did he keep choking him after he stopped moving?

Everyone just jumps to conclusions without knowing anything. But the randy side is really sick. To know nothing and say it's fine because the victim has a bad history? That's fucked up. Damn near evil.

Here's one version, there are multiple other stories that say he was held in the chokehold for ~ 15 minutes:

...In the minutes leading up to the deadly chokehold, Neely had been “acting erratically,” but he did not attack anyone on the train, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a witness who recorded the altercation on video.

As soon as Neely got on the train, he started yelling about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Vazquez told CNN.

Before he was killed, Neely said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,” according to Vazquez.

At some point, Neely took off his coat and threw it on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez said.

As the yelling continued, many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other parts of the train car. Neely did not appear to be armed or looking to attack anyone, Vazquez told CNN.

Then a rider came up behind Neely and put him in a chokehold, with the two eventually falling to the floor, said Vazquez. Neely did not interact with that passenger at all prior to the attack, Vazquez continued.

In the video recorded by Vazquez, Neely and the other man are seen on the floor of a subway car with the man’s arm wrapped around Neely’s neck. The two men were on the floor for about seven minutes, Vazquez said, adding he started recording about three or four minutes after the chokehold began.

At some point, two other passengers approached Neely and the man holding him down. One appeared to be mediating the situation while the other seemed to help the man restrain Neely, according to Vazquez.

After a while, Vazquez noticed Neely stopped moving and talking, he said.

When police officers arrived at the subway station in Lower Manhattan before 2:30 p.m. Monday, they administered first aid to an unconscious Neely. He was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead later in the afternoon, according to a law enforcement source and an NYPD spokesperson.

CNN has not been able to independently confirm what happened leading up to the incident or how long Neely was restrained...

Is this any more complicated than a meathead who was excited to get to try out a chokehold on a real human?

twocoach wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 1:37 pm

Feral wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 6:49 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 11:16 pm

Does anyone actually know what did happen?

I mean, if he was physically attacking people, or in their face threatening to, I see how Penny could have tried to get him off them and accidentally choked him to death. And there are a lot of details just within there that are unknown - did he keep choking him after he stopped moving?

Everyone just jumps to conclusions without knowing anything. But the randy side is really sick. To know nothing and say it's fine because the victim has a bad history? That's fucked up. Damn near evil.

Here's one version, there are multiple other stories that say he was held in the chokehold for ~ 15 minutes:

...In the minutes leading up to the deadly chokehold, Neely had been “acting erratically,” but he did not attack anyone on the train, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a witness who recorded the altercation on video.

As soon as Neely got on the train, he started yelling about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Vazquez told CNN.

Before he was killed, Neely said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,” according to Vazquez.

At some point, Neely took off his coat and threw it on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez said.

As the yelling continued, many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other parts of the train car. Neely did not appear to be armed or looking to attack anyone, Vazquez told CNN.

Then a rider came up behind Neely and put him in a chokehold, with the two eventually falling to the floor, said Vazquez. Neely did not interact with that passenger at all prior to the attack, Vazquez continued.

In the video recorded by Vazquez, Neely and the other man are seen on the floor of a subway car with the man’s arm wrapped around Neely’s neck. The two men were on the floor for about seven minutes, Vazquez said, adding he started recording about three or four minutes after the chokehold began.

At some point, two other passengers approached Neely and the man holding him down. One appeared to be mediating the situation while the other seemed to help the man restrain Neely, according to Vazquez.

After a while, Vazquez noticed Neely stopped moving and talking, he said.

When police officers arrived at the subway station in Lower Manhattan before 2:30 p.m. Monday, they administered first aid to an unconscious Neely. He was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead later in the afternoon, according to a law enforcement source and an NYPD spokesperson.

CNN has not been able to independently confirm what happened leading up to the incident or how long Neely was restrained...

Is this any more complicated than a meathead who was excited to get to try out a chokehold on a real human?

Maybe. That's why they have trials.

Mjl wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:04 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 1:37 pm

Feral wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 6:49 am

Here's one version, there are multiple other stories that say he was held in the chokehold for ~ 15 minutes:

...In the minutes leading up to the deadly chokehold, Neely had been “acting erratically,” but he did not attack anyone on the train, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a witness who recorded the altercation on video.

As soon as Neely got on the train, he started yelling about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Vazquez told CNN.

Before he was killed, Neely said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,” according to Vazquez.

At some point, Neely took off his coat and threw it on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez said.

As the yelling continued, many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other parts of the train car. Neely did not appear to be armed or looking to attack anyone, Vazquez told CNN.

Then a rider came up behind Neely and put him in a chokehold, with the two eventually falling to the floor, said Vazquez. Neely did not interact with that passenger at all prior to the attack, Vazquez continued.

In the video recorded by Vazquez, Neely and the other man are seen on the floor of a subway car with the man’s arm wrapped around Neely’s neck. The two men were on the floor for about seven minutes, Vazquez said, adding he started recording about three or four minutes after the chokehold began.

At some point, two other passengers approached Neely and the man holding him down. One appeared to be mediating the situation while the other seemed to help the man restrain Neely, according to Vazquez.

After a while, Vazquez noticed Neely stopped moving and talking, he said.

When police officers arrived at the subway station in Lower Manhattan before 2:30 p.m. Monday, they administered first aid to an unconscious Neely. He was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead later in the afternoon, according to a law enforcement source and an NYPD spokesperson.

CNN has not been able to independently confirm what happened leading up to the incident or how long Neely was restrained...

Is this any more complicated than a meathead who was excited to get to try out a chokehold on a real human?

Maybe. That's why they have trials.

Obviously.

I was wondering why the rubes were declaring their support for vets over migrants soon facebook. And then I read this.....

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/homeless-ve ... rly-false/

How remarkably tone-deaf. He will fit right in with Kyle.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 1:37 pm How remarkably tone-deaf. He will fit right in with Kyle.

The old "I'm not a racist because I have a black friend" approach. He'll probably be a keynote speaker at CPAC 2024.

Who hasn’t choked someone to death out of love?

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 2:02 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 1:37 pm How remarkably tone-deaf. He will fit right in with Kyle.

The old "I'm not a racist because I have a black friend" approach. He'll probably be a keynote speaker at CPAC 2024.

And if he goes to prison, Boebert and MTG will compete to see who can make the most conjugal visits?

#sick!

Hard to believe this is still going on, but republicans remain delusional. I guess now Kari can focus on out-MAGAing Marj and the rest of the pretenders for the VP spot on Trump's ticket:

NY Grand jury indicts Daniel Penny over death of Jordan Neely

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:05 am NY Grand jury indicts Daniel Penny over death of Jordan Neely

As they should.

As much as I wish Feinstein would have done the right thing and resigned years ago, republicans have made politics a zero-sum game, so here we are.

republicans have made politics a zero-sum game

LOL

Feral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 7:59 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:05 am NY Grand jury indicts Daniel Penny over death of Jordan Neely

As they should.

You're right. Crazy people should be allowed to menace innocent people on the subway with impunity. Great precedent.

JKLivin wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 10:32 am

Feral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 7:59 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:05 am NY Grand jury indicts Daniel Penny over death of Jordan Neely

As they should.

You're right. Crazy people should be allowed to menace innocent people on the subway with impunity. Great precedent.

If that's what I'd said, you've have a point.
I didn't, so you don't.

But, you're OK with the perp being the judge and jury and deciding to kill someone because he felt "menaced"?

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 10:17 am republicans have made politics a zero-sum game

LOL

As I typed I thought, DC's going to love this.