Israel/Palestine

[DeletedUser]

those who are unable or unwilling to make a cogent point or argument often resort to conflation, misrepresentation, or downright lies

You mean to say you're not enjoying this "discussion" with Ousdahl?

I'm shocked.

[dolomite]

After watching the October 7 attack by the Palestinians I noticed that many of the attackers were wearing just street clothes and not Hamas military uniforms. So did Hamas recruit ordinary Gazans to carry out their dirty work? Maybe not all the civilians are innocent.

[DCHawk1]

Yea, I saw that Economist poll too, but dunno whether it makes mention of this thread.

Dunno where you came up with those hot takes about Israel and peace and Hamas and a right to exist, but feel free to share your source.

Now, if you’re willing to consider the issues of colonial settler ideology in America, may we please consider it in this thread too?

if you don’t know hamas’ founding principles by now, you should really remove your ignorant ass from this and any other such discussions

smfh

He doesn't care.

[Shirley]

Yea, I saw that Economist poll too, but dunno whether it makes mention of this thread.

Dunno where you came up with those hot takes about Israel and peace and Hamas and a right to exist, but feel free to share your source.

Now, if you’re willing to consider the issues of colonial settler ideology in America, may we please consider it in this thread too?

if you don’t know hamas’ founding principles by now, you should really remove your ignorant ass from this and any other such discussions

smfh

^^^

smfh x 2

It's...naiveté, (to put it nicely), like this, that renders me mostly unwilling to engage with your posts, ousdahl.

[Sparko]

The hope is he'll get it. The frustration is that he doesn't.

[ousdahl]

Jeez you guys.

Part of me feels like I should just shut up. If we can’t actually discuss the situation at hand without loosing our minds, why bother, right?

But, since you continue to be not only so condescending, and not only in a way that completely (and intentionally?) misrepresents me, but in a way that only shows how limited your guy’s own views are about so much of the reality of this thread…I can’t help but feel the need to respond.

But, don’t worry. This time I’ll at least give you an out!

[jfish26]

The problem is that the price of admission for “discussing” often seems to be accepting false premises, or implicitly agreeing with small (but weird and/or wrong and/or ambiguous) things that are mixed in with the discussion-worthy points.

I have no personal issue with you at all (in fact I like you a lot), BUT nor am I, for example, going to accept, as the price of discussing Ukraine/Russia, the premise that there was something like a “war initiative” on both sides (to any degree worth discussing), when there simply was not.

[ousdahl]

Yea, I saw that Economist poll too…

but only posted the one that would seem to support your narrative



fucking clown

What was the rest of my post there? Not the part you cherry picked, but the part you omitted?

I just didn’t see anything in that economist poll about Israel or Palestine, which means I’m not sure how it’s relevant to this thread.

But since I don’t want to discount its validity for the sake of, you know, otherwise only supporting my narrative - I’ll post it in the 2024 thread, with commentary, since I think it’s a better fit there.

Regarding the NYT poll I posted, which DID make relevant mention of this thread - I’ll reiterate that I just hope Biden can offer some campaign talking points more and better than his policies about Israel. It’s very divisive, and it’s getting very little support from the younger and more progressive voter demographics he needs to win reelection.

There’s also the whole big, almost paradoxical, issue of younger generations not supporting Israel, if anyone would like to discuss that.

[ousdahl]

Yea, I saw that Economist poll too, but dunno whether it makes mention of this thread.

Dunno where you came up with those hot takes about Israel and peace and Hamas and a right to exist, but feel free to share your source.

Now, if you’re willing to consider the issues of colonial settler ideology in America, may we please consider it in this thread too?

if you don’t know hamas’ founding principles by now, you should really remove your ignorant ass from this and any other such discussions

smfh

He doesn't care.

Oh, but I DO care.

That’s why I persist in this thread!

I haven’t said anything about Hamas beyond condemnation. They’re terrorists!

I just think the wise thing to do would be to also consider the material conditions that created Hamas, rather than stick to the WMDs-in-Iraq style talking point of pretending Hamas just sorta…happened.

Now, I wish that all the Israeli hostages would be returned safe and sound, like, 2 and a half months ago. I was there were never taken hostage to begin with!

I imagine we agree on that.

But the thing is, I also wish all the Palestinian hostages would be returned, too.

(or, if “hostage” seems inappropriate there, perhaps you prefer the term, “Palestinians detained by Israel indefinitely, often without being charged or otherwise afforded due process, often including children”)

But who knows if we agree on that.

And, speaking of not caring - you apparently missed that article I quoted you about that reported Israel’s indiscriminately slaughtering even Israeli hostages, even as they waved white flags, and pleaded for their lives in Hebrew.

even as families of Israeli hostages and other Israeli citizens think the Israeli gummint isn’t keeping Israelis safe, and their holy-shit-aggressive response to the hostage situation isn’t the right way to try and get these hostages back.

But maybe no one else here cares about that, huh.

[ousdahl]

Yea, I saw that Economist poll too, but dunno whether it makes mention of this thread.

Dunno where you came up with those hot takes about Israel and peace and Hamas and a right to exist, but feel free to share your source.

Now, if you’re willing to consider the issues of colonial settler ideology in America, may we please consider it in this thread too?

if you don’t know hamas’ founding principles by now, you should really remove your ignorant ass from this and any other such discussions

smfh

^^^

smfh x 2

It's...naiveté, (to put it nicely), like this, that renders me mostly unwilling to engage with your posts, ousdahl.

Shirley, if you’re gonna accuse me of naiveté, then I only feel it’s appropriate for me to say it seems awful, AWFUL naive of you to avoid acknowledging Biden’s hawkish ass policies for the sake of your “vote blue no matter who” world view or whatever.

If you wanna claim you’re anti-war, start acting like it.

(Ohhh maybe that’s foreshadowing!)

[ousdahl]

The hope is he'll get it. The frustration is that he doesn't.

Get what?

Yes, Hamas is bad, and the 10/7 attack is terrorism.

Your and my tax dollars have furnished the killing of tens of thousands of civilians, the (permanent?) displacement of almost 2 million more; mostly women and kids. If they haven’t been bombed to death, they face starving to death instead.

Even Biden, at best complicit and at worst the most guiltiest war criminal in the entire thread, thinks Israel is killing indiscriminately at this point. Even he wants them to ease up on civilians (not that he’s gonna like NOT sidestep congress to keep giving Israel weapons anyway)

So, again, tell me.

Get what?

[ousdahl]

The problem is that the price of admission for “discussing” often seems to be accepting false premises, or implicitly agreeing with small (but weird and/or wrong and/or ambiguous) things that are mixed in with the discussion-worthy points.

I have no personal issue with you at all (in fact I like you a lot), BUT nor am I, for example, going to accept, as the price of discussing Ukraine/Russia, the premise that there was something like a “war initiative” on both sides (to any degree worth discussing), when there simply was not.

Thanks again, fish, for not making this personal. Even if we disagree, even if we disagree aggressively, I don’t think we’ve ever like started calling each other names or shit. The civility doesn’t go unnoticed.

And without touching Ukraine/Russia here - I’m afraid Israel/Palestine is the most UNambiguous conflict since, like…the last time some militant fascist government forced millions of ethnic monitories into some inhumanely confined little area.

[KUTradition]

[DCHawk1]

I just think the wise thing to do would be to also consider the material conditions that created Hamas

You mean the first Intifada?

Take it up with Arafat.

[DCHawk1]

the last time some militant fascist government forced millions of ethnic monitories into some inhumanely confined little area.

King Hussein was never a fascist.

[ousdahl]

And howsabout this whopper

But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... as-israel/

[ousdahl]

But, okay okay.

I said I’d give an out.

I’ll quit this thread if, heck, even one of you guys in this thread will post the following:






















CEASEFIRE NOW

[DCHawk1]

There was a ceasefire on 10/6.

How'd that work out?

[Overlander]

CEASEFIRE NOW


Does this work for others threads as well?

[DeletedUser]

CEASEFIRE NOW


Does this work for others threads as well?

I see what you did there...