Kansas Crimson

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:47 am the skills aren't hard to teach...they just take hard work

While I agree they take hard work, they also take some unteachable natural skill.

Westbrook and LeBron are 2 of the hardest workers in the NBA (by most accounts) and neither of those guys are good shooters. I don't think it's due to lack of working hard.

In fact, the other night Westbrook became the worst volume 3pt shooter in the history of the NBA....something like he's got the lowest 3pt % of anyone who has ever attempted over 2,500 3pt shots. He's at like 30% career 3pt %

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:26 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:24 am he may just not have the alpha in him to be one of the top guys in the league...it would seem all the tools are there

I'd lean that the "tools" aren't really "all there".

He's not a great shooter. He's not a great ball handler. He's not good at creating for others. And his not very "creative" with the ball in his hands.

To me, it looks like when he's "attacking" a defender alot of times he has a premeditated "move" already decided. That's not a terrible thing, don't get me wrong. But it reminds me of the spin thru the lane he'd attempt it college a lot. Sometimes it works and it's amazing when it does. Other times it results in wild out of control missed shots or turnovers. He has a bag full of tricks. He picks one and goes with it.

Some of the top guys in the league seem to decide on the fly and have instincts that allow them the react in a split second and be more creative based on how the defense is reacting.

You think Wiggins's issue is a skill and/or tools issue?

That is so embarrassingly wrong.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:00 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:26 am

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:24 am he may just not have the alpha in him to be one of the top guys in the league...it would seem all the tools are there

I'd lean that the "tools" aren't really "all there".

He's not a great shooter. He's not a great ball handler. He's not good at creating for others. And his not very "creative" with the ball in his hands.

To me, it looks like when he's "attacking" a defender alot of times he has a premeditated "move" already decided. That's not a terrible thing, don't get me wrong. But it reminds me of the spin thru the lane he'd attempt it college a lot. Sometimes it works and it's amazing when it does. Other times it results in wild out of control missed shots or turnovers. He has a bag full of tricks. He picks one and goes with it.

Some of the top guys in the league seem to decide on the fly and have instincts that allow them the react in a split second and be more creative based on how the defense is reacting.

You think Wiggins's issue is a skill and/or tools issue?

That is so embarrassingly wrong.

Yes (in the context of not being an all star or top player in the league). I explained in detail above.

He's not "skilled" with the ball. Not a great ball handler. Not very creative with the ball in his hands.

There are more skills/tools than just height/length/running fast/jumping high.

Being a good ballhandler is a skill/tool. Being a good shooter is a skill/tool.
Being instinctual and creative is a skill/tool.


It's not as easy as just saying "if he simply worked harder/cared more he'd be an all star".

Yes, caring more would result in him not having as bad of a year as he's having. But it wouldn't result in him being an all star. At least not right now. He's not "skilled" enough to be an all star. He is a scoring guard who isn't shooting very well. He's shooting a miserable 38% from the field...although a career high of 36% from 3pt land.

Wiggins is attempting more 3pt shots per game than kevin durant. That's not a good strategy for utilizing his skill set.

The natural tools, especially on offense although he has shown he can be a very effective defender and rebounder, are there. At this point, he wouldn't be in the league if they weren't.

Do you really think the difference between someone like Wiggins and Westbrook is that Westbrook has such a higher skill level? Insane. That argument might work for someone like Chris Paul, but your arguments contradict themselves and make no sense.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:41 am The natural tools, especially on offense although he has shown he can be a very effective defender and rebounder, are there. At this point, he wouldn't be in the league if they weren't.

Do you really think the difference between someone like Wiggins and Westbrook is that Westbrook has such a higher skill level? Insane. That argument might work for someone like Chris Paul, but your arguments contradict themselves and make no sense.

I mentioned Westbrook is the context of shooting/ball handling being a learned skill.....Westbrook is a hard worker. I'm certain he works on outside shooting extremely hard....but he still sucks at shooting....I don't think it's from lack of hard work or lack of caring.

Westbrook is more skilled at ball handling, creativity with the ball, creating for others, he's also more instinctual offensively and defensively. Those are skills/tools too.. he's also more skilled at stat padding! (Just for pwhitt)


They're both long, tall, fast, and can jump high.....but there's a lot of guys like that in the league. They don't all have the skills/tools needed to be an all star caliber player. There's more to it than that. That's all I'm saying when I say he doesn't have ALL the tools/skills. At least not yet.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:47 am Westbrook is more skilled at ball handling, creativity with the ball, creating for others, he's also more instinctual, etc. Those are skills/tools too.. he's also more skilled at stat padding! (Just for pwhitt)

Well, sure, they do play different positions.

The point is, Wiggins absolutely has all of the natural ability and toolset to be a superstar. It's undeniable. That they haven't developed/improved is a different matter.

The fact that he hasn't turned himself into a superstar has nothing to do with his skill level. It's all on him and his makeup. It would have been so incredibly easy for guys like Paul George, Westbrook, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, even LeBron and on and on to be or stay an inefficient offensive player and middle of the pack starter. Those guys weren't working with any better toolsets as young NBA players. They had something else, though.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:54 am
Well, sure, they do play different positions.

The point is, Wiggins absolutely has all of the natural ability and toolset to be a superstar. It's undeniable. That they haven't developed/improved is a different matter.

The fact that he hasn't turned himself into a superstar has nothing to do with his skill level. It's all on him and his makeup. It would have been so incredibly easy for guys like Paul George, Westbrook, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, even LeBron and on and on to be or stay an inefficient offensive player and middle of the pack starter. Those guys weren't working with any better toolsets as young NBA players. They had something else, though.

LeBron absolutely has/had a better "tool set"....the rest aren't worth arguing about even though McGrady and PG13 have probably always been better shooters than Wiggins. Westbrook always better at dribbling and getting to the rim... (those are tools too)

you're pretending that athletic related tools (height/length/speed/jumping) are the only relevant tools....Wiggins has all of those tools for sure, the others I've mentioned are what are holding him back...that's in addition to things like caring a lot and working hard (although I still tend to think Wiggins is a relatively hard worker).

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:03 pmyou're pretending that athletic related tools (height/length/speed/jumping) are the only relevant tools....Wiggins has all of those tools for sure, the others I've mentioned are what are holding him back...that's in addition to things like caring a lot and working hard (although I still tend to think Wiggins is a relatively hard worker).

That's not at all what I'm saying. Have a good day.

Fwiw I agree 100% that if he cared more and/played harder he'd be better than he currently is.

I just have serious doubts that trying hard/caring more is the ONLY thing that's preventing him from being as good as some hoped he'd be.

Wiggins biggest problem was he was a victim. A victim of hype. He has nonhuman athleticism. It's ridiculous. But his basketball skills are very average by NBA standards and there is more to the game than just athleticism. And there is a difference between work ethic and competitiveness

Wiggins no showed again. Team scors 128 pts. He was 3-15 foe 10 points 3 rebs and 1 ast. Eesh.

Oubre and MK tried to mirror each other last night. Came pretty close.

Games played 11/28/18

Embiid - 30 min, 10-21 fg, 0-3 3pt, 14 reb, 7 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk, 26 points
Wiggins - 30 min, 3-15 fg, 1-5 3pt, 3 reb, 1 ast, 2 stl, 10 points "Eesh".
Oubre - 35 min, 9-18 fg, 4-8 3pt, 6 reb, 2 stl, 22 points
MKMo - 32 min, 9-17 fg, 4-9 3pt, 9 reb, 1 stl, 22 points
Diallo - 6 min, 2-3 fg, 0-1 3pt, 5 reb, 6 points
Jackson - 20 min, 6-10 fg, 0-1 3pt, 7 reb, 2 stl, 15 points

good for Josh

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:50 am good for Josh

Ya. That's 2 decent games in a row. Hopefully he is working his way out of his funk.

If he keeps this up he will be the 1st Jayhawk to be 1st team all nba in a long time.

what, ~60 years?

Wilt got it 10 times

Games played 11/29/18

Svi - DNP CD
Frank - 3 min, 0s
Ben - DNP CD

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:44 am re: Svi

it’s better than no nba career