japhy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:24 pm
I believe the pensions spent end up in building GDP numbers for the state and tax revenue.
I accept your surrender.
Claims without data to support are just empty words. "Couple A" in my example above when looked at through the lens of an ALEC analysis seem like they are in a tenuous financial position. My guess is they will figure it out and do OK in the end.
You don't think Illinois has a pension crisis?
(You're from IL right?)
Do you agree that the numbers shown in the "Truth in Accounting " website might be skewed with regards to assessment of financial stability?
japhy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:24 pm
I believe the pensions spent end up in building GDP numbers for the state and tax revenue.
I accept your surrender.
Claims without data to support are just empty words. "Couple A" in my example above when looked at through the lens of an ALEC analysis seem like they are in a tenuous financial position. My guess is they will figure it out and do OK in the end.
You don't think Illinois has a pension crisis?
(You're from IL right?)
But then again, where did you prove it has a pension problem?
IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:35 pm
You don't think Illinois has a pension crisis?
(You're from IL right?)
Do you agree that the numbers shown in the "Truth in Accounting " website might be skewed with regards to assessment of financial stability?
I agree it is a hard thing to gauge.
It doesn't seem very hard to gauge whether or not the "truth in Accounting" method is skewed to make pensions look bad. It just does, and it does not take into account the ability to pay off long term debt. The methodology seems to be set up to "prove" that public service pensions are a primary cause of States economic problems. Blame the unions, it's what ALEC does.
IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:35 pm
You don't think Illinois has a pension crisis?
(You're from IL right?)
But then again, where did you prove it has a pension problem?
So after you watched the youtube video (I think we can all agree that nothing is more definitive as a fact source than a youtube video) what was your takeaway? Does Illinois have a liability issue or a revenue issue? They make the case that pensions drive the liability issue, but what drives the revenue issues if there is one?
But then again, where did you prove it has a pension problem?
So after you watched the youtube video (I think we can all agree that nothing is more definitive as a fact source than a youtube video) what was your takeaway? Does Illinois have a liability issue or a revenue issue?
Both?
Re: Chicago
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:13 pm
by japhy
We agree! No need to sound so tepid.
Having a flat income tax rate seems like a real long term problem no matter what the liabilities are. If you can't get the people to vote to change that, the only way to solve revenue is to continue to ratchet up sales taxes and real estate taxes. Any time I buy something that costs more than $500 in Chicago the clerk will ask if I want it shipped to my home address; wink wink we will claim it was an internet sale, to cut out the high sales tax. I won't lie, I always say "oh hell yes". Chicago is usually full of tourists, but the locals pay the brunt of the high sales taxes. Now that the other taxes are high in IL to compensate, all the politicians who want to get rid of the unions have to do is vilify the pensions and tell everyone that the proposed new progressive taxes are caused by pensions. And people will vote down a change to the tax system. Even though in the long run, a change to a progressive tax rate system could ease the burden of the middle class and definitely lower wage earners. You can always count on the voters who don't have a pension to vote against paying for a pension. The fewer union workers there are, the fewer pensions there are.
Taxes that skew things are a problem in a lot of States. In own some real estate in Colorado and some in Missouri. The value of my real estate in CO is more than 3X the value of that in MO. I own 24,000 sf of residential and commercial space in CO and about 2,800 sf in MO. My total real estate taxes in MO are about 1.5X that of CO. We have great schools where I live in MO. CO can't seem to be able to pay their teaches a reasonable salary and their schools suffer with high turnover rates. But try to get people who don't have kids in public schools to vote for higher taxes to improve the "city" schools. If you want to have nice things, you have to figure out how to pay for them equitably. You have to understand that what is a nice thing in Dudleyville IL may not be the same as what is a nice thing in Chicago. You can either pit the rural vote against the big city vote to suit your political purposes or you can figure out an equitable way to spread around the revenue and talk truth to people. And keep in mind that the revenue produced in Chicago and the population does entitle them to some considerations even if you don't want to spend time in the City.
There are a lot of public jobs that are not as desirable as private jobs. Pensions are what gets people to take those jobs. Engineers are a good case in point. Most State DOTs pay crappy salaries for engineers. The best engineers go into private firms and get 401Ks and higher salaries. Every year the States have to try to get new graduates to take jobs in the DOTs, their best option is to give them a pension. If they didn't have that to entice new employees, they would be even more understaffed. If you want to "prove" that government provided services don't work, just underfund it and watch the results follow.
Chicago will figure it out, they always do. There is way too much money in that city for investors to let it sink.
Re: Chicago
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:13 pm
by Deleted User 310
japhy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:13 pm
We agree! No need to sound so tepid.
Having a flat income tax rate seems like a real long term problem no matter what the liabilities are. If you can't get the people to vote to change that, the only way to solve revenue is to continue to ratchet up sales taxes and real estate taxes. Any time I buy something that costs more than $500 in Chicago the clerk will ask if I want it shipped to my home address; wink wink we will claim it was an internet sale, to cut out the high sales tax. I won't lie, I always say "oh hell yes". Chicago is usually full of tourists, but the locals pay the brunt of the high sales taxes. Now that the other taxes are high in IL to compensate, all the politicians who want to get rid of the unions have to do is vilify the pensions and tell everyone that the proposed new progressive taxes are caused by pensions. And people will vote down a change to the tax system. Even though in the long run, a change to a progressive tax rate system could ease the burden of the middle class and definitely lower wage earners. You can always count on the voters who don't have a pension to vote against paying for a pension. The fewer union workers there are, the fewer pensions there are.
Taxes that skew things are a problem in a lot of States. In own some real estate in Colorado and some in Missouri. The value of my real estate in CO is more than 3X the value of that in MO. I own 24,000 sf of residential and commercial space in CO and about 2,800 sf in MO. My total real estate taxes in MO are about 1.5X that of CO. We have great schools where I live in MO. CO can't seem to be able to pay their teaches a reasonable salary and their schools suffer with high turnover rates. But try to get people who don't have kids in public schools to vote for higher taxes to improve the "city" schools. If you want to have nice things, you have to figure out how to pay for them equitably. You have to understand that what is a nice thing in Dudleyville IL may not be the same as what is a nice thing in Chicago. You can either pit the rural vote against the big city vote to suit your political purposes or you can figure out an equitable way to spread around the revenue and talk truth to people. And keep in mind that the revenue produced in Chicago and the population does entitle them to some considerations even if you don't want to spend time in the City.
There are a lot of public jobs that are not as desirable as private jobs. Pensions are what gets people to take those jobs. Engineers are a good case in point. Most State DOTs pay crappy salaries for engineers. The best engineers go into private firms and get 401Ks and higher salaries. Every year the States have to try to get new graduates to take jobs in the DOTs, their best option is to give them a pension. If they didn't have that to entice new employees, they would be even more understaffed. If you want to "prove" that government provided services don't work, just underfund it and watch the results follow.
Chicago will figure it out, they always do. There is way too much money in that city for investors to let it sink.
Fwiw, and not even sure you were implying that i do, but i don't live in dudleyville IL. I live in the 6th most populated city in the state.
I was thinking 114k-ish...down from 119k-ish 10 years ago.
Yes Lexington is twice as big....but don't start acting like you live in NYC or LA. We probably have more full sets of teeth in our 114k than your 328k.
..and definitely less inbred UK fans.
Re: Chicago
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:49 am
by jhawks99
I just posted a number. You're the one going all gusher geography smack.
Re: Chicago
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:02 am
by Deleted User 289
To my fellow Illinois residents.....
This made me laugh.
Springfield doesn't make the top 100 but Highwood (The town of about 5,000 people located in-between Highland Park and Lake Forest - both considered in the top 100 wealthiest cities in the USA) comes in at 41.
Grandma wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:02 am
To my fellow Illinois residents.....
This made me laugh.
Springfield doesn't make the top 100 but Highwood (The town of about 5,000 people located in-between Highland Park and Lake Forest - both considered in the top 100 wealthiest cities in the USA) comes in at 41.
Grandma wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:02 am
To my fellow Illinois residents.....
This made me laugh.
Springfield doesn't make the top 100 but Highwood (The town of about 5,000 people located in-between Highland Park and Lake Forest - both considered in the top 100 wealthiest cities in the USA) comes in at 41.
Of course that was laughable too.
Granted, "redneck" doesn't necessarily equate to a lack of wealth, education, etc., but Barrington is about as "redneck" as Chicago is conservative.
Re: Chicago
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:48 am
by Mjl
Lake Bluff is odd to have there as well.
Highwood I sort of understand, the residents are lower income than the enveloping HP. But man, it's got some great restaurants.
Grandma wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:02 am
To my fellow Illinois residents.....
This made me laugh.
Springfield doesn't make the top 100 but Highwood (The town of about 5,000 people located in-between Highland Park and Lake Forest - both considered in the top 100 wealthiest cities in the USA) comes in at 41.
Of course that was laughable too.
Granted, "redneck" doesn't necessarily equate to a lack of wealth, education, etc., but Barrington is about as "redneck" as Chicago is conservative.
To be fair, they did not list Barrington Hills. Barrington is where the housecleaning help lives.
Re: Chicago
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:52 am
by Deleted User 289
LOL!
MANY years ago my Aunt had a housekeeper who lived in Barrington with her husband. She would drive to my aunt's house (in Glencoe) in her Corvette.
On the flip side of that, on Sundays our family would go to a restaurant in Highwood named Lupo's. We had to lock our doors and roll up the windows of the car when we drove through Highwood. That's a joke of course.
Being serious, no doubt a lot of restaurant workers and "maintenance" type of people live in Highwood but calling hard working Hispanics (who make up about 30% of the Highwood population) "rednecks" seems a bit foolish to me.
Re: Chicago
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:58 am
by Deleted User 289
This is getting interesting - at least to me.
I have worked for and with multiple Daleys and people related to them. Not saying it isn't true about "J" but I have never experienced it first hand nor seen or heard it from any of the other Daleys.
Meanwhile, SOME of the Vaneckos don't exactly have a stellar reputation.
Re: Chicago
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:44 am
by Deleted User 289
This was what I woke up to today. WE have to DEMAND Mayor Lightfoot either do something about it or resign. Since I know she's not going to quit, I would hope she would start by firing our worthless Police Superintendent and replacing him with someone competent.
