Kansas Crimson

Sparko wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:37 pm Yow. Egg prices and climate hoax. All Biden's fault. Pretty nice lazy grift if you can get it.

Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:52 pm This should settle it:

Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:52 pm This should settle it:

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:53 am I assume everyone understands the difference between what Vivek said and what Kudlow said?

Vivek is too clever by half and Kudlow is...well...not.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:36 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:08 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:01 pm

It actually goes back to just after the Civil War. And yes, it's still relevant. And I disagree with you wholeheartedly. There is nothing but culture wars.

Ok. If it helps we could stop using the phrase "culture wars".

First, I'm for candidates who support and defend democracy and democratic process.

Next, I'm for candidates who support and defend equal rights, and reasonable gun laws.

Next, I'm for candidates who believe in human-caused climate change and want to act NOW to mitigate the harm we've done and lessen the harm we'll do.

Finally, I'll figure out what's left.

As far as I can tell, there won't be room to support pubs again for a very long while. And I don't want that. I want to have a real choice. But I don't, now, and I don't anticipate having one any time soon.

That's fine.

But most of that is cultural -- not economic and not basic public policy.

You're cultural warrior -- just on the other side from where you started.

japhy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:52 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:53 am I assume everyone understands the difference between what Vivek said and what Kudlow said?

Vivek is too clever by half and Kudlow is...well...not.

Isn't this the problem with having any serious discussion of climate change and effects/mitigation, the attempts to be "too clever"?

You can argue who started the polarization and making the "side" of "hoax-not hoax" you are on a political litmus test, but in the end if you really believe we are talking about something that will lead to mass migration and mass population die off, it is pretty cynical to play the "too clever" game for short term political gains. I think a lot more politicians think it is real than will admit it. But they play the "too clever" game because it is the staked out territory of a constituency they are courting.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:59 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:36 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:08 pm

Ok. If it helps we could stop using the phrase "culture wars".

First, I'm for candidates who support and defend democracy and democratic process.

Next, I'm for candidates who support and defend equal rights, and reasonable gun laws.

Next, I'm for candidates who believe in human-caused climate change and want to act NOW to mitigate the harm we've done and lessen the harm we'll do.

Finally, I'll figure out what's left.

As far as I can tell, there won't be room to support pubs again for a very long while. And I don't want that. I want to have a real choice. But I don't, now, and I don't anticipate having one any time soon.

That's fine.

But most of that is cultural -- not economic and not basic public policy.

You're cultural warrior -- just on the other side from where you started.

Look, you don't dip a Is This A Culture Wars Thing??? stick in the thread and see whether a plus or minus sign shows.

But I think the direction you want to take the discussion is pretty empty, pretty breezy. It very clearly is pointed toward a landing spot that there's no such thing as truth or lie, fact or fiction, right or wrong. And I think that's a shitty landing spot.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:06 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:59 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:36 pm

That's fine.

But most of that is cultural -- not economic and not basic public policy.

You're cultural warrior -- just on the other side from where you started.

Look, you don't dip a Is This A Culture Wars Thing??? stick in the thread and see whether a plus or minus sign shows.

But I think the direction you want to take the discussion is pretty empty, pretty breezy. It very clearly is pointed toward a landing spot that there's no such thing as truth or lie, fact or fiction, right or wrong. And I think that's a shitty landing spot.

I'm not steering the discussion anywhere. I'm merely acknowledging ideological reality.

And yes, it is exceptionally nihilistic. But that's hardly on me. I didn't make the rules. I'm merely acknowledging them.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:26 am
Ok. I don’t accept, for example, that there’s anything to debate about whether human-caused climate change is real. Accordingly, to say it’s a culture wars issue - to say that the “ideological reality” is that it’s a culture wars issue - is a fancy way of saying that “that’s your opinion” is a worthwhile response to a fact that someone doesn’t want to be a fact.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:38 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:26 am
Ok. I don’t accept, for example, that there’s anything to debate about whether human-caused climate change is real. Accordingly, to say it’s a culture wars issue - to say that the “ideological reality” is that it’s a culture wars issue - is a fancy way of saying that “that’s your opinion” is a worthwhile response to a fact that someone doesn’t want to be a fact.

The issue itself -- i.e. the climate is warming and man is responsible for it -- may, indeed, be apolitical.

But that is the only part of the discussion that is.

Everything else -- the extent of the warming; the impact of the warming; the most effective response to the warming; the tradeoffs, costs, and benefits of any proposed response; the likelihood of success; etc. -- is political and largely driven by culture-heavy ideology.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:57 am And mark my words, Vivek is eagerly anticipating a reporter asking him the "right" question.

"You said climate change is a 'hoax.' Can you tell me...."

"Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait...I did NOT say climate change is a hoax. But let me tell you what IS a hoax...."

Too clever by half.

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:34 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:57 am And mark my words, Vivek is eagerly anticipating a reporter asking him the "right" question.

"You said climate change is a 'hoax.' Can you tell me...."

"Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait...I did NOT say climate change is a hoax. But let me tell you what IS a hoax...."

Too clever by half.

DC's right, Vivek said the "the climate change agenda is a hoax".

Vivek knows that the future, the younger demographic, considers climate change a more important problem than the older demographic. (Although, thankfully, not by much. Plus, the rate of it becoming more important across age demographics is increasing at the same rate*.)

Vivek and DC know that decade after decade after decade of republicans denying Global Warming is even a thing, in service to their benefactors, day after day after day of ever-increasing all-time high temperature records along with what can seem like nearly half of N. America on fire at times this summer, makes the argument about the very existence of climate change harder and harder to make, even to their cult.

When the facts are on your side, argue the facts.

The "facts" are not on their side so like Vivek during the debate, yesterday DC invited us to participate in a discussion about the process. It's not that the "process" doesn't need a nearly infinite amount of discussion, or that I/we wouldn't likely learn a lot from it, especially since we've never been here before, but by cynically contesting the "facts" for so many decades in service to the extraction industries, et al, seamlessly segueing now to a likely never-ending discussion about "process" while the polar ice caps continue to melt and climate refugees continue to increase globally, might strike a reasonable person as being a little rich.


*4/5/23 Gen Z and Millennials (60%)1 are more likely to be either Alarmed or Concerned about global warming than Gen X (53%), or Baby Boomers and older generations (53%). Gen Z and Millennials (16%) are also less likely to be either Doubtful or Dismissive than Gen X (21%), or Baby Boomers and older generations (25%).

jfish26 wrote:Let’s use this as another waypoint on Vivek.

His language - that the agenda is a hoax, but not the issue itself - was super, super intentional. Just like the “mental health” discussion yesterday, Vivek is letting people hear what they want to hear. Someone who thinks human-caused climate change is a hoax, can hear Vivek say that.

So, what he said isn’t dishonest. But it very much is knowingly vague.

He’s great with words. Accordingly, he should be held to account for precisely what he says, and how, and why.