Kansas Crimson

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:57 am Also, even the DoE disagrees on Universal Pre-K...
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED611913.pdf

Progressive politicians, including President Biden, have called for an unprecedented expansion of federal investment in early education, arguing that it would boost women’s participation in the workforce and that the long-run academic benefits for children would yield economic dividends.

The first claim is well supported by existing research. The second does not withstand scrutiny. Although there are some frequently cited studies of early childhood interventions that have shown remarkably positive results, they were conducted based on interventions and in environments that bear little resemblance to the policy proposals currently on the table and hence have limited utility in informing contemporary debates.

Moreover, a deeper look at the most rigorous and representative research on the effects of early education for children provides more cause for alarm than optimism. Expanded child care likely benefits deeply disadvantaged students. For other students, these programs may have no impact, or have a negative effect on cognitive or noncognitive measures.

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:54 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:07 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 8:55 am This is all cheap, largely useless, platitudinous nonsense.

That's sort of my point. The talking point corners people go back to are, despite being entirely opposite in some cases, logical and digestible.

It makes sense to say that colleges and employers should be free to select on merit alone.

It also makes sense to say that colleges and employers should be free to select on whatever criteria they want.

It also makes sense for government-supported programs to consider matters of social equity.

It also makes sense for government-supported programs to select on merit alone (because that gets at the efficiency of our tax dollars).

That's all why I come back to, yes, pragmatism. Meritocracy is clearly the goal. So how do we serve that goal, fairly?

Well, we make things fairer.

Instead of rewarding or punishing a kid for being on third base, how do we work on the front end to make it so other kids don't start a mile away from the stadium?

I think there is ENORMOUS bang for the buck - taxpayer efficiency - in programs like free, universal Pre-K, and (yes) student loan forgiveness/breaks for people from disadvantaged backgrounds, and (yes) a basic social safety net to keep people healthy and working/learning.

Money goes SO much further that way than in remedial, backward-looking action.

I was thinking mostly of this nonsense:

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:30 am
All the more reason why we should fund primary schools more. Too bad the GOP makes education one of their primary line items to cut in a budget review.

I mean...Luxembourg, Norway, and Iceland spend more than the US (per pupil) on education and primary education (in particular), but we spend more than every other country.

rEpUbLiCaNs iS KiLlInG eDuCaTiOn is tired (and tiresome) boolsheet.

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:41 am As it currently stands, the children will get out of their education what their parents put into it.

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:28 am
But OK, it must just be BS.

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:17 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:02 am

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:57 am

I don't want my kids to be intolerant or disrespectful. I do want them to be confronted with issues at an age-appropriate time and in an age-appropriate manner. I think that is where parents are going to disagree. One parent may think that appropriate age is 8, where another may think it is 16.

It's a continuum, right? I think it's perfectly fine for an 8 year old to be taught that some kids might have two moms. I'd take it further and say that 8 year olds very much should be taught that some kids have two moms.

So, when we disagree on subjective matters like these, how is the problem solved? That's the dilemma.

randylahey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:38 am The department of education is what is destroying education in this country. American public schools are horrible. More worried about idealogical indoctrination than with preparing kids for adulthood

Abolish

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:43 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:17 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:02 am

It's a continuum, right? I think it's perfectly fine for an 8 year old to be taught that some kids might have two moms. I'd take it further and say that 8 year olds very much should be taught that some kids have two moms.

So, when we disagree on subjective matters like these, how is the problem solved? That's the dilemma.

My answer - a fairly callous one I guess - is that you need to put your reality goggles on and stop fighting the tide.

Some kids have two moms. Your kids need to learn that some kids have two moms, and that that's a normal and expected part of life.

And you as a parent have the responsibility for teaching your kids about how that fact interacts with your belief system.

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:45 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:43 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:17 am

So, when we disagree on subjective matters like these, how is the problem solved? That's the dilemma.

My answer - a fairly callous one I guess - is that you need to put your reality goggles on and stop fighting the tide.

Some kids have two moms. Your kids need to learn that some kids have two moms, and that that's a normal and expected part of life.

And you as a parent have the responsibility for teaching your kids about how that fact interacts with your belief system.

I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the relevance of those facts to the purpose of school, which is to teach kids to read, write, and do arithmetic. We, as a culture, seem to have lost sight of that somewhere along the way.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:48 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:45 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:43 pm

My answer - a fairly callous one I guess - is that you need to put your reality goggles on and stop fighting the tide.

Some kids have two moms. Your kids need to learn that some kids have two moms, and that that's a normal and expected part of life.

And you as a parent have the responsibility for teaching your kids about how that fact interacts with your belief system.

I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the relevance of those facts to the purpose of school, which is to teach kids to read, write, and do arithmetic. We, as a culture, seem to have lost sight of that somewhere along the way.

But that's where things get muddy, right?

I personally think a math problem that just so happens to be about little JK's two moms, or little JFish's two dads, is an EXCELLENT way to communicate to the kiddos that having two moms or two dads is so mundane, so fucking boring, as to be fodder for a math problem.

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:57 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:48 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:45 pm

I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the relevance of those facts to the purpose of school, which is to teach kids to read, write, and do arithmetic. We, as a culture, seem to have lost sight of that somewhere along the way.

But that's where things get muddy, right?

I personally think a math problem that just so happens to be about little JK's two moms, or little JFish's two dads, is an EXCELLENT way to communicate to the kiddos that having two moms or two dads is so mundane, so fucking boring, as to be fodder for a math problem.

Meh. I'm not concerned about the two moms. I have a gay son, and public school didn't make him that way, nor is church going to un-gay him. I'm concerned with getting distracted from teaching kids the facts and skills they need to be successful.

As someone who has been in higher education for a quarter of a century, I can assure you that they don't read well, can't write, refuse to follow instructions, don't accept feedback, and can't do simple math. Are there exceptions to the rule? Sure. But, by and large, it is starkly different than when I was in college. Doesn't bode well for the future of our country.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:05 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:57 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:48 pm

But that's where things get muddy, right?

I personally think a math problem that just so happens to be about little JK's two moms, or little JFish's two dads, is an EXCELLENT way to communicate to the kiddos that having two moms or two dads is so mundane, so fucking boring, as to be fodder for a math problem.

Meh. I'm not concerned about the two moms. I have a gay son, and public school didn't make him that way, nor is church going to un-gay him. I'm concerned with getting distracted from teaching kids the facts and skills they need to be successful.

As someone who has been in higher education for a quarter of a century, I can assure you that they don't read well, can't write, refuse to follow instructions, don't accept feedback, and can't do simple math. Are there exceptions to the rule? Sure. But, by and large, it is starkly different than when I was in college. Doesn't bode well for the future of our country.

Fine.

But what does that have to do, then, with bathroom panic, and kitty litter lies, and is-that-pole-vaulter-hiding-a-pole, and yada yada yada?

Because it seems to me like the lion's share of these "social issues" that are, in your view, distracting from the learning process...are artificial PANICS!!! induced by right-wingers' takeover of school board meetings (and boards themselves).

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:45 pm

randylahey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:38 am The department of education is what is destroying education in this country. American public schools are horrible. More worried about idealogical indoctrination than with preparing kids for adulthood

Abolish

I'm just a crazy lefty, I know, but: it sure fucking seems like the "worried about ideological indoctrination" camp is the camp YOU'RE in.

Maybe YOU should stop being concerned with ensuring the schools are vectors for religion.

randylahey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:37 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:45 pm

randylahey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:38 am The department of education is what is destroying education in this country. American public schools are horrible. More worried about idealogical indoctrination than with preparing kids for adulthood

Abolish

I'm just a crazy lefty, I know, but: it sure fucking seems like the "worried about ideological indoctrination" camp is the camp YOU'RE in.

Maybe YOU should stop being concerned with ensuring the schools are vectors for religion.

I'm not religious and don't want religion in schools.

Private schools can do that shit

randylahey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:38 am The department of education is what is destroying education in this country. American public schools are horrible. More worried about idealogical indoctrination than with preparing kids for adulthood

Abolish

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:57 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:48 pm

JKLivin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:45 pm

I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the relevance of those facts to the purpose of school, which is to teach kids to read, write, and do arithmetic. We, as a culture, seem to have lost sight of that somewhere along the way.

But that's where things get muddy, right?

I personally think a math problem that just so happens to be about little JK's two moms, or little JFish's two dads, is an EXCELLENT way to communicate to the kiddos that having two moms or two dads is so mundane, so fucking boring, as to be fodder for a math problem.

Meh. I'm not concerned about the two moms. I have a gay son, and public school didn't make him that way, nor is church going to un-gay him. I'm concerned with getting distracted from teaching kids the facts and skills they need to be successful.

As someone who has been in higher education for a quarter of a century, I can assure you that they don't read well, can't write, refuse to follow instructions, don't accept feedback, and can't do simple math. Are there exceptions to the rule? Sure. But, by and large, it is starkly different than when I was in college. Doesn't bode well for the future of our country.