Kansas Crimson

If Grimes and Vick played both close to their potential, and if the rest of the team played as well as they normally do, wouldn’t this team be nearly unstoppable?

They should be but...
1. They haven’t figured out how to play Dok and Lawson together.
2. They can’t shoot the 3 very well.
3. Grimes hasn’t developed as fast as initially thought.
4. Dok has been hurt and can’t shoot FTs.

Cascadia wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:47 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:44 pm

sdoyel wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:53 pm Self sits Vick the final 8+...

Didn’t he get pulled right after he stood there waiting for a long rebound while the ISU guy ran up and grabbed it instead?

Believe they hit a 3 on the other end of that play. Awful sequence for KU

I also enjoyed the one where he turned the ball over on the break, walked back defensively and the guy who stole the ball had no trouble finding a guy in the corner to swish a 3.

sdoyel wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:53 pm Self sits Vick the final 8+...

I liked that. self was sending a message. Vick sucked ass today. and we all know it. Vick has been amazing at times this year. So I'm not hating. We have a lot of individual talent on this team... but to make the pieces fit we desperately need Vick to be our rock. we need his outside shooting/scoring. 7 turnovers cant ever happen again.

Vick needs to take ownership for this team to reach its potential. no off nights. Yeah the improvement of the freshman is a big piece too. but its starts and ends with the senior

Do we have a lot of individual talent? I really don’t think so.

Yes.
Vick=talented. If you’ve seen some of his 30+ point games you know he has talent.
Dedric=talented. Could be B12POY.
Dok=talented. If he gets the ball by the basket there’s no stopping him.
Dotson=talented. His speed from end to end is in the best Self has had.
Grimes=talented. We are starting to see it.

then you got guys like Garrett, who is a great supporting role talent, though this team's still trying to figure out who plays lead.

I think that's our problem right now: identity. Let's figure out the patchwork of talent we got and quilting it into an integrated team.

I was thinking about starting a new thread about threes, but how often do we really run a play for a shooter?

e.g. Vick has been heralded as among the best and most clutch players in college from deep, at least at points thus far this season, right?

Yet so much of that shooting success has been Vick creating his own shots off the dribble, and often well defended at that. Have we run a single play where, say, Vick comes sprinting around screens to get to open spots for a catch-and-shoot? How much of that is on Self?

I mean I'm also all for Vick creating his own shots, but I just wish instead of creating a guarded jumper, he could figure out how quick he is and create some two-dribbles-to-a-teabag-dunk sorta shots more often.

pdub wrote: ↑Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:34 am Yes.
Vick=talented. If you’ve seen some of his 30+ point games you know he has talent.
Dedric=talented. Could be B12POY.
Dok=talented. If he gets the ball by the basket there’s no stopping him.
Dotson=talented. His speed from end to end is in the best Self has had.
Grimes=talented. We are starting to see it.

Vick’s talent is, and has always been, limited by his heart or his head or both.

Dedric really ISN’T talented, not in this context. Doesn’t mean he’s not an excellent college player, but he’s not as effective offensively as Marcus was (and it’s that kind of impact we badly need).

Doke is really not that talented at all.

Dotson has the best burst on the team, and I would say appears to me to be our most talented guy.

I don’t know what to think about Grimes. He seems a step slow and late to everything. I’ve not even seen flashes of high level athleticism.

so you're defining talent pretty strictly in terms of athleticism?

yeah, that's a big part of it.

But what about talent in terms of skillset? cuz not many dudes can, for instance, pull off Dedrick's perimeter spin move to a layup. It's just a bummer he's not more athletic, though if he was, he'd be in the league by now.

What about in terms of pure strength? (and in terms of stuff you can't teach or develop, like size?) Cuz yeah could say Dok's not talented, but try telling that to all the dudes he's dunked on.

and I think Grimes has it in him. There have been a couple times he has bursted down the open court so quick I thought it was Dotson. Grimey's problem seems still between his ears. He's just been out of sync. But he's coming around.

I can't think of a definition of talented where at least one of, if not both, lawson and dok fit the bill.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:22 am

pdub wrote: ↑Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:34 am Yes.
Vick=talented. If you’ve seen some of his 30+ point games you know he has talent.
Dedric=talented. Could be B12POY.
Dok=talented. If he gets the ball by the basket there’s no stopping him.
Dotson=talented. His speed from end to end is in the best Self has had.
Grimes=talented. We are starting to see it.

Vick’s talent is, and has always been, limited by his heart or his head or both.

Dedric really ISN’T talented, not in this context. Doesn’t mean he’s not an excellent college player, but he’s not as effective offensively as Marcus was (and it’s that kind of impact we badly need).

Doke is really not that talented at all.

Dotson has the best burst on the team, and I would say appears to me to be our most talented guy.

I don’t know what to think about Grimes. He seems a step slow and late to everything. I’ve not even seen flashes of high level athleticism.

lol. saying dedric and dok arent talented is just pure nonsense

Dok is tremendous at positioning and using his body without the ball in his hands. Basketball talent? Lacking, which is why he’s not ever going to be a first round pick despite eye popping numbers/efficiency.

I do disagree on dedric. Probably the 1st or 2nd best rebounder we’ve had here. Takes a lot of skill/talent. If anything he has to use his raw skill/talent to make up for his athletic deficiencies.

Overall, I think this team sits somewhere around the middle in overall talent in Self era. Dotson and Grimes will shine in the tournament. Particularly Dotson.

Dedric and Dok SHOULD be very complementary players. Dok is a beast, Dedric is incredibly skilled. They ought to be able to play together and have a synergy. They really shouldn't get in each others way at all and should make each other better.

Saying they don't fit together is like saying a ball dominant PG and a catch and shoot SG can't be in the same backcourt at the same time. That Dok and Dedric can't play together is like saying Steph Curry and Klay Thompson can't play together.

Self has to get this figured out, because the pieces are there for a really good team. Especially with Dotson and Grimes improving with experience.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:02 pm Dok is tremendous at positioning and using his body without the ball in his hands. Basketball talent? Lacking, which is why he’s not ever going to be a first round pick despite eye popping numbers/efficiency.

I do disagree on dedric. Probably the 1st or 2nd best rebounder we’ve had here. Takes a lot of skill/talent. If anything he has to use his raw skill/talent to make up for his athletic deficiencies.

Overall, I think this team sits somewhere around the middle in overall talent in Self era. Dotson and Grimes will shine in the tournament. Particularly Dotson.

"Talented" is obviously a fuzzy target. I think it's sort of a blending of athleticism and skill. A player's NBA future (or lack thereof) is a great proxy.

Based solely on what we've seen on the court this year, Dotson is the only NBA rotation player on this team.

Vick: Too much has to go right, because he is so skinny. He does not appear to have the mental toughness to consistently perform at the level where his considerable athleticism can keep him on a roster.

Dedric: We need to stop calling him an "average" athlete. That does "average" athletes a tremendous disservice. He is a bad athlete, or even a non-athlete. He is highly skilled, but he doesn't appear to have the juice to be a go-to guy even at this level (he picks up great numbers in the course of play, because he's smart and skilled and tough, but he is not a guy you can give the ball and expect him to get a bucket).

Doke: Very hard to see him getting drafted at this point, whenever he does come out. He is a zero away from the basket on both ends, and now he clearly can't even be counted on to just be available.

Grimes: Again, based solely on what we've seen on the court this year, he is not an NBA rotation player. He can't shoot, he doesn't have high-level bounce and he doesn't bully obvious physical mismatches.

Kinda gotta agree with JFish on some of this....this may be the least talented team of the Self era (especially without Dok). Definitely bottom 3 or so even at best....but maybe I'm being too influenced by our lack of future NBA players on this roster.

Dotson has been amazing, and if it weren't for him exceeding expectations from Day 1 then I'd be much more nervous about this team.

Not many (any?) "great" teams this year, so I still feel like we're right at the top compared to the rest of the country.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:01 am Kinda gotta agree with JFish on some of this....this may be the least talented team of the Self era. Definitely bottom 3 or so even at best....but maybe I'm being too influenced by our lack of future NBA players on this roster.

Of course, we also have an NBA rotation player in street clothes serving out a nonsuspension suspension.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:05 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:01 am Kinda gotta agree with JFish on some of this....this may be the least talented team of the Self era. Definitely bottom 3 or so even at best....but maybe I'm being too influenced by our lack of future NBA players on this roster.

Of course, we also have an NBA rotation player in street clothes serving out a nonsuspension suspension.

Ya maybe. I wasn't real sold on SDS as an NBA player. At least not yet. He's a power forward in a world where we see less and less "power forwards"....if TRob isn't on a roster then I have serious doubts about SDS. Is he better than Cliff? So hard to tell when he has hardly been able to play since he's been here.

Another proxy, albeit at the other end of a college basketball playing career is McD's All-American

We have 5, 4 with Dok out.

This was a team many thought was the best in the country and a FF favorite at the start of the year. If we're now saying this team isn't talented, there's some combination of EVERYONE on the roster underperforming, and EVERYONE on this board (not to mention the media) completely overestimated the entire roster.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:09 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:05 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:01 am Kinda gotta agree with JFish on some of this....this may be the least talented team of the Self era. Definitely bottom 3 or so even at best....but maybe I'm being too influenced by our lack of future NBA players on this roster.

Of course, we also have an NBA rotation player in street clothes serving out a nonsuspension suspension.

Ya maybe. I wasn't real sold on SDS as an NBA player. At least not yet. He's a power forward in a world where we see less and less "power forwards"....if TRob isn't on a roster then I have serious doubts about SDS. Is he better than Cliff? So hard to tell when he has hardly been able to play since he's been here.

You're right that it's not hard to come up with the failure-case (at the NBA level) for Silvio. I happen to think (or maybe hope) that he can buy into team defense concepts in a way Thomas couldn't, which is really what doomed him.

Of course what Silvio needs more than anything is reps.