Kansas Crimson

regarding transfers, Dedric and Tarik are both underrated picks.

Dedric was the biggest thing keeping a mediocre team from being completely gawdawful, and doesn't get credit for it.

Tarik was a good college player, good enough to play in the pros, and could have been a really good college player, except that by the time you get done reading this he already picked up another foul.

It is not beyond dumb to take Wayne Simien over Cole.
Simien was a consensus 1st team All American - Cole made 2nd team.
Only Frank Mason averaged more points in a season than Simien did and he is only one of 2 players under Self to average 20+ points and the only 1 to average 20 and 10.

Player A: 14.9 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 1 APG, .6 SPG, 2.7 BPG, 57% FG.
Player B: 20.3 PPG, 11 RPG, 1.4 APG, .6 SPG, .6 BPG, 55% FG.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:57 am It is not beyond dumb to take Wayne Simien over Cole.
Simien was a consensus 1st team All American - Cole made 2nd team.
Only Frank Mason averaged more points in a season than Simien did and he is only one of 2 players under Self to average 20+ points and the only 1 to average 20 and 10.

Player A: 14.9 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 1 APG, .6 SPG, 2.7 BPG, 57% FG.
Player B: 20.3 PPG, 11 RPG, 1.4 APG, .6 SPG, .6 BPG, 55% FG.

Ok. But in context, when you're literally getting to draft from this talent pool, by the time you're down to drafting Wayne, your offense is covered.

I couldn't call picking one of the best players to play under Self beyond dumb. Or dumb.
Simien absolutely makes one of the three teams of 8, even if Simien isn't allowed to be 3 of those 8 on each team.

If Marcus is drafted, picking Simien at your 4 spot would be a great choice.

Simien gets a bad rap from his early exits and his not sticking in the NBA.
The former you can argue is fair ( though he was the only one who showed v Bucknell ) to argue in these exercises, the latter I don't think is unless it's specifically including their career after college.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:15 am

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:04 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:56 am Cole goes undrafted in this exercise.

24 players and no Cole?
Fail.

There were some rules - you had to pick one transfer, one OAD and one walk-on. But even so, beyond dumb (for example) to take Wayne over Cole.

While reading this I thought, “here comes another pdub meltdown”

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:14 am I couldn't call picking one of the best players to play under Self beyond dumb. Or dumb.
Simien absolutely makes one of the three teams of 8, even if Simien isn't allowed to be 3 of those 8 on each team.

If Marcus is drafted, picking Simien at your 4 spot would be a great choice.

Simien gets a bad rap from his early exits and his not sticking in the NBA.
The former you can argue is fair ( though he was the only one who showed v Bucknell ) to argue in these exercises, the latter I don't think is unless it's specifically including their career after college.

Meh. It's hard to find a spot for a guy who has to play the 5, but isn't an especially interesting defender.

Frank Mason
Udoka Azubuike
Wayne Simien
Brandon Rush
Ben McLemore
Dedric Lawson
Tyshawn Taylor
Conner Teahan

Marcus Morris
Sherron Collins
Mario Chalmers
Andrew Wiggins
Jeff Withey
Joel Embiid
Aaron Miles
Christian Moody

Devonte Graham
Josh Jackson
Thomas Robinson
Cole Aldrich
Devon Dotson
Malik Newman
Perry Ellis
Matt Kleinmann

Something like this. Simien is getting on there.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:47 am

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:14 am I couldn't call picking one of the best players to play under Self beyond dumb. Or dumb.
Simien absolutely makes one of the three teams of 8, even if Simien isn't allowed to be 3 of those 8 on each team.

If Marcus is drafted, picking Simien at your 4 spot would be a great choice.

Simien gets a bad rap from his early exits and his not sticking in the NBA.
The former you can argue is fair ( though he was the only one who showed v Bucknell ) to argue in these exercises, the latter I don't think is unless it's specifically including their career after college.

Meh. It's hard to find a spot for a guy who has to play the 5, but isn't an especially interesting defender.

Meh that you and CnB think it has to be 4 guards and 1 center in college.
Again, UNC won the title in 2017 with a center and 2 forwards starting.
And Simien was fine on defense and a very good rebounder - he played next to Graves, he could play next to a rim protector.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:58 am Frank Mason
Udoka Azubuike
Wayne Simien
Brandon Rush
Ben McLemore
Dedric Lawson
Tyshawn Taylor
Conner Teahan

Marcus Morris
Sherron Collins
Mario Chalmers
Andrew Wiggins
Jeff Withey
Joel Embiid
Aaron Miles
Christian Moody

Devonte Graham
Josh Jackson
Thomas Robinson
Cole Aldrich
Devon Dotson
Malik Newman
Perry Ellis
Matt Kleinmann

Something like this. Simien is getting on there.

Perry, but no Shady or Kieff?

I was debating Perry and Shady and Kief in that very last spot.

I gave the nod to Perry b/c I know how many people that would upset b/c they hate Perry because he doesn't show enough emotion or something like that.

Also the end of Perry's career when he was healthy again, he was killing it, scoring 20 points night in, night out ( 8 games in a row of 17+ points - including 21 v Uconn and 27 v Maryland -- but then, oopsies v Nova ).

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:29 pm I was debating Perry and Shady and Kief in that very last spot.

I gave the nod to Perry b/c I know how many people that would upset b/c they hate Perry because he doesn't show enough emotion or something like that.

(That's not why people "hate" Perry for things like this.)

for real.

I'm indifferent about showing emotion.

Dude was just soft, and prone to not showing up.

Because of a shit game v Nova, he was prone to not showing up.
He scored 27 points vs Maryland in the Sweet 16 game before that.
21 in both NCAA games before that. And averaged 19.3 PPG in the B12 tourney which we won.

The season before he played through a knee injury but still was the highest scorer in that debacle against Wichita State.

and that UK game. Go figure he was the leader of the team that produced the worst looss of Self's KU career.

And his first career start, which produced TCU's first ever Big 12 conference win.

And just his entire freshman year, when we were left hoping this All American burger forward would be able to step up and take minutes from Kevin Young. Kevin. Young.

And generally his entire career, when you knew he could put up the points but you still lacked faith he could get the W.

and when BofH called him "the worst good player we've ever had," and are you gonna argue with BofH?

just generally, in the spectrum of Bill Self Power Forwards, he's closer to the Kevin Young/Moody end of the spectrum than the Marcus Morris/TRob end.

But hey, we as KU fans are spoiled. If Oregon State had a player like Perry then BeaverFever would still be chewing wood about it too.

Wait, so we're docking Perry for his freshman year but not Kief?
What'd Kief do in his freshman season?
"And generally his entire career, when you knew he could put up the points but you still lacked faith he could get the W." - and what does this even mean - KU won the B12 all 4 years he was there and was a 1 seed twice and a 2 seed twice.

"just generally, in the spectrum of Bill Self Power Forwards, he's closer to the Kevin Young/Moody end of the spectrum than the Marcus Morris/TRob end."
Shit, I didn't know that Kevin Young and Tristan Moody was a consensus 2nd team All American. Or at least in that spectrum.

Of note, Kief almost had as many turnovers as he did points in the VCU loss.

I guess in terms of potential, both exhibited some during their freshman year. Perry came in more lauded, with higher expectations because of it, and had a midmajor transfer to beat out. Kieff wasn't necessarily expected as much to be a first year impact, and had his twin brother to beat out lol.

I dunno, I just think 2013-2016 was the weakest stretch of the Self Ku era, relatively speaking, and if we can assume last year was an outlier. That era produced some of the worst losses and some of the least competitive games. And especially once he was an upperclassman, Perry was the leader of that era, whether he wanted to be or not.

I'm using peak season to pick these guys, so I agree that it's very close, in fact, I had originally picked Arthur, but edited it last minute.
But if it's peak season, I don't care what Perry did his freshman year.
If it was total KU career, Perry would easily beat out Shady and Kief.

2015 he was hurt, but yes, that season ended with a thud.
But you can also look at a step back season from Selden ( what the hell happened ) and a meh outing from Oubre as reasons for that.
2016 we could have won the title if it wasn't for the stripes.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:41 pm I'm using peak season to pick these guys, so I agree that it's very close, in fact, I had originally picked Arthur, but edited it last minute.
But if it's peak season, I don't care what Perry did his freshman year.
If it was total KU career, Perry would easily beat out Shady and Kief.

(Perry has a better total KU career because he was not good enough to leave early.)