Kansas Crimson

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:21 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:19 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:51 am

I don't know.

But there are always reasons with the annual doghouse guy.

I'm not saying the reasons are bad or anything, but...he's clearly healthy now. Our March/April ceiling is clearly the highest with him playing and performing well. And the best way for him to play/perform well in March/April is clearly to get floor time before, I don't know, we lose two of three in February.

You assume that Rice is in the doghouse. Maybe he just is behind due to missing so many practices and games.

Any team's ceiling can be defined as being higher when (name a player on their roster) is playing their best. Not having MJ Rice ready in isn't going to be why KU loses two of three. If that happens then it will be because multiple starters all go into a funk at the same time. The notion that the 9th guy in the rotation can magically cover up that if it happens is nonsense and not supported by any reality at all.

That's sort of my point. Of course our February lull won't be because Rice is still playing 10ish minutes/game.

But, for all that's good about this team, it's pretty light on high-end talent. Rice has high-end talent. Our floor and ceiling will BOTH be better if we're bringing the talent we do have along, aggressively.

Do you want KU to win a bunch of games or do you want to be able to brag about all our high end talent that we have on display? Pretty sure that Self has shown that he does just fine bringing his "high end talent along" since we're about to have yet another 1st Team All American who started out as a guy ranked below the Top 25. It just rarely happens in one season so I am not sure why that is your expectation/hope.

"Talent" to me is just a replacement for the word "potential". It means you have the physical tools to eventually be able to play at a high level but doesn't guarantee that you will ever play at a high level. Rice just isn't there yet. I'd be stunned if he develops into a guy who everyone sees needs to be a significant part of the rotation this season. What I am encouraged about is that he seems to have the "talent" to be a good player next season and an excellent player two seasons from now.

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:42 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:21 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:19 am
You assume that Rice is in the doghouse. Maybe he just is behind due to missing so many practices and games.

Any team's ceiling can be defined as being higher when (name a player on their roster) is playing their best. Not having MJ Rice ready in isn't going to be why KU loses two of three. If that happens then it will be because multiple starters all go into a funk at the same time. The notion that the 9th guy in the rotation can magically cover up that if it happens is nonsense and not supported by any reality at all.

That's sort of my point. Of course our February lull won't be because Rice is still playing 10ish minutes/game.

But, for all that's good about this team, it's pretty light on high-end talent. Rice has high-end talent. Our floor and ceiling will BOTH be better if we're bringing the talent we do have along, aggressively.

Do you want KU to win a bunch of games or do you want to be able to brag about all our high end talent that we have on display? Pretty sure that Self has shown that he does just fine bringing his "high end talent along" since we're about to have yet another 1st Team All American who started out as a guy ranked below the Top 25. It just rarely happens in one season so I am not sure why that is your expectation/hope.

I guess I'm to the point where I don't really care what we do in the regular season. I want us to sell out for March and April every year. Bill has a very long history of burying guys in maxing out regular season wins, and I think the time for that is over (particularly with the streak ending).

The only thing, from a few years ago forward, that will be remembered are Final Fours and NCAA titles.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:46 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:42 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:21 am

That's sort of my point. Of course our February lull won't be because Rice is still playing 10ish minutes/game.

But, for all that's good about this team, it's pretty light on high-end talent. Rice has high-end talent. Our floor and ceiling will BOTH be better if we're bringing the talent we do have along, aggressively.

Do you want KU to win a bunch of games or do you want to be able to brag about all our high end talent that we have on display? Pretty sure that Self has shown that he does just fine bringing his "high end talent along" since we're about to have yet another 1st Team All American who started out as a guy ranked below the Top 25. It just rarely happens in one season so I am not sure why that is your expectation/hope.

I guess I'm to the point where I don't really care what we do in the regular season. I want us to sell out for March and April every year. Bill has a very long history of burying guys in maxing out regular season wins, and I think the time for that is over (particularly with the streak ending).

The only thing, from a few years ago forward, that will be remembered are Final Fours and NCAA titles.

Name one season where you felt postseason disappointment was because you felt KU didn't develop the 9th guy in the rotation well enough for him to help avoid that loss.

the Diallo year is the one that usually gets mentioned

15-16?

that big man minute distribution was all over the place that year

Perry Ellis 30.3
Landen Lucas 18.4
Jamari Traylor 13.6
Carlton Bongg 8.9
Hunter Mickelson 7.7
Cheick Diallo 7.5

tho perhaps there's debate whether guys like Perry and Jamari were even really bigs.

and for whatever it's worth, Cheick was the only dood among that bunch to ever sniff the league

Rice doesn't play because he doesn't do the details Self cares about well, like keeping the ball moving, understanding spacing, defensive rotations, etc. He also can't play defense without fouling. I don't understand how playing him more in games helps us in March and April. He needs to show in practice that he can do those things first.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:55 am the Diallo year is the one that usually gets mentioned

15-16?

They were 33-5 that season, earned a 1 seed and lost in the Elite Eight to a 2 seeded Nova by 5 mostly due to our guards going 6-22 from three, Ellis completely disappearing to the tune of just 5 field goal attempts and having to deal with multiple BS fouls called on Graham that led to him fouling out late.

Thinking that Diallo was going to do something is mostly just projecting the fact that he got drafted based on a "talent" level that really has never materialized into any actual production. I think he's playing in Japan right now.

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:12 am Rice doesn't play because he doesn't do the details Self cares about well, like keeping the ball moving, understanding spacing, defensive rotations, etc. He also can't play defense without fouling. I don't understand how playing him more in games helps us in March and April. He needs to show in practice that he can do those things first.

Those things are all true at times. The thing is, young players learn by playing in real games and being allowed to play through some mistakes. You do have to pull them when it becomes too costly to the overall game. Rice has some things that can't be coached like skill and athleticism. We've seen it before with young players. It takes time for the light to come on.

It helps us in March and April because this team needs some quality depth.

The old mantra that Self doesn't give young guys enough minutes early in their career needs to go the way of the old fable about him being too stubborn to change his system. He has repeatedly shown that isn't actually the case and that he is more than willing to play young players if they show they can do what needs to be done to win. If Rice was balling out like Gradey, he'd play more. If he was performing better in practice and in the minutes he earns in games, he'd play more.

I have zero concerns about KU's ceiling being impacted by Rice's development this season. I have more concern about Adams' limitations based on his size, Wilson's poor fg% and Gradey's occasional defensive woes. None of which are serious enough that it leads me to feel that KU isn't a serious contender this season. They definitely are which frankly is pretty stunning to me. This team is better than I thought they'd be given what they lost.

AlOerter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:36 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:12 am Rice doesn't play because he doesn't do the details Self cares about well, like keeping the ball moving, understanding spacing, defensive rotations, etc. He also can't play defense without fouling. I don't understand how playing him more in games helps us in March and April. He needs to show in practice that he can do those things first.

Those things are all true at times. The thing is, young players learn by playing in real games and being allowed to play through some mistakes. You do have to pull them when it becomes too costly to the overall game. Rice has some things that can't be coached like skill and athleticism. We've seen it before with young players. It takes time for the light to come on.

It helps us in March and April because this team needs some quality depth.

It is a fan assumption that young players "learn by playing in real games". I doubt you'd find many ncaa coaches that would agree with you.

I'd bet they learn far more in practice and in film study than they do in games.

I wonder what freshman Rice would look like if he was getting freshman Selden minutes

AlOerter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:36 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:12 am Rice doesn't play because he doesn't do the details Self cares about well, like keeping the ball moving, understanding spacing, defensive rotations, etc. He also can't play defense without fouling. I don't understand how playing him more in games helps us in March and April. He needs to show in practice that he can do those things first.

Those things are all true at times. The thing is, young players learn by playing in real games and being allowed to play through some mistakes. You do have to pull them when it becomes too costly to the overall game. Rice has some things that can't be coached like skill and athleticism. We've seen it before with young players. It takes time for the light to come on.

It helps us in March and April because this team needs some quality depth.

I agree. I love Self, but if he has one weakness, it is this.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:40 am I wonder what freshman Rice would look like if he was getting freshman Selden minutes

He doesn't appear to be good enough relative to his available teammates to earn those minutes.

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:39 am

AlOerter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:36 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:12 am Rice doesn't play because he doesn't do the details Self cares about well, like keeping the ball moving, understanding spacing, defensive rotations, etc. He also can't play defense without fouling. I don't understand how playing him more in games helps us in March and April. He needs to show in practice that he can do those things first.

Those things are all true at times. The thing is, young players learn by playing in real games and being allowed to play through some mistakes. You do have to pull them when it becomes too costly to the overall game. Rice has some things that can't be coached like skill and athleticism. We've seen it before with young players. It takes time for the light to come on.

It helps us in March and April because this team needs some quality depth.

It is a fan assumption that young players "learn by playing in real games". I doubt you'd find many ncaa coaches that would agree with you.

I'd bet they learn far more in practice and in film study than they do in games.

Players begin to better deal with pressure and understand what is and isn't a foul with playing time at this level. Rice has some real tools and will probably play some real minutes by the end of the year. His development was slowed by some nagging injuries. He can really finish and rebound. First world problems.

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:06 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:40 am I wonder what freshman Rice would look like if he was getting freshman Selden minutes

He doesn't appear to be good enough relative to his available teammates to earn those minutes.

But this is silly. He simply is better at basketball than Yesufu and Pettiford. If he is not yet as polished, then Bill's job is to get him there. I don't think it's outlandish at all to suggest that playing in real basketball games is part of how to achieve that.

Rice's size and skillset, and the way we like to play now, should be perfect for him to be the primary backup to all of the three wings we start. Honestly, by February/March, he should be getting something close to starter minutes, by virtue of backing up all three positions; right now, Wilson, Dick and McCullar are playing 95.6/120 minutes. There's no reason Rice shouldn't be, by February/March, getting 20+ minutes (particularly because we really shouldn't be playing Wilson 34/game).

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:19 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:06 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:40 am I wonder what freshman Rice would look like if he was getting freshman Selden minutes

He doesn't appear to be good enough relative to his available teammates to earn those minutes.

But this is silly. He simply is better at basketball than Yesufu and Pettiford. If he is not yet as polished, then Bill's job is to get him there. I don't think it's outlandish at all to suggest that playing in real basketball games is part of how to achieve that.

Rice's size and skillset, and the way we like to play now, should be perfect for him to be the primary backup to all of the three wings we start. Honestly, by February/March, he should be getting something close to starter minutes, by virtue of backing up all three positions; right now, Wilson, Dick and McCullar are playing 95.6/120 minutes. There's no reason Rice shouldn't be, by February/March, getting 20+ minutes (particularly because we really shouldn't be playing Wilson 34/game).

I trust the evaluation of his abilities by the group of coaches who have won multiple national titles and who are currently the best staff of coaches in the entire sport and who pore over every minute of practice and game film in which Rice participates over some random fan on a message board who only sees what is shown of him on a TV broadcast. Weird, I know.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:19 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:06 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:40 am I wonder what freshman Rice would look like if he was getting freshman Selden minutes

He doesn't appear to be good enough relative to his available teammates to earn those minutes.

But this is silly. He simply is better at basketball than Yesufu and Pettiford. If he is not yet as polished, then Bill's job is to get him there. I don't think it's outlandish at all to suggest that playing in real basketball games is part of how to achieve that.

Rice's size and skillset, and the way we like to play now, should be perfect for him to be the primary backup to all of the three wings we start. Honestly, by February/March, he should be getting something close to starter minutes, by virtue of backing up all three positions; right now, Wilson, Dick and McCullar are playing 95.6/120 minutes. There's no reason Rice shouldn't be, by February/March, getting 20+ minutes (particularly because we really shouldn't be playing Wilson 34/game).

Bill plays guys when they pay attention to detail to put the team in the best position to win. He gives guys chances in first halves. If they continue to do those things wrong they don't get more minutes. If they do things right they get minutes.

I think you're mistaking athleticism and individual ability with helping teams win games. They aren't always the same.

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:02 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:19 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:06 pm

He doesn't appear to be good enough relative to his available teammates to earn those minutes.

But this is silly. He simply is better at basketball than Yesufu and Pettiford. If he is not yet as polished, then Bill's job is to get him there. I don't think it's outlandish at all to suggest that playing in real basketball games is part of how to achieve that.

Rice's size and skillset, and the way we like to play now, should be perfect for him to be the primary backup to all of the three wings we start. Honestly, by February/March, he should be getting something close to starter minutes, by virtue of backing up all three positions; right now, Wilson, Dick and McCullar are playing 95.6/120 minutes. There's no reason Rice shouldn't be, by February/March, getting 20+ minutes (particularly because we really shouldn't be playing Wilson 34/game).

Bill plays guys when they pay attention to detail to put the team in the best position to win. He gives guys chances in first halves. If they continue to do those things wrong they don't get more minutes. If they do things right they get minutes.

I think you're mistaking athleticism and individual ability with helping teams win games. They aren't always the same.

No kidding, especially since we have zero clue what Rice's skill set is since we have barely seen him do anything at all. The notion that Rice should be getting 20+ minutes by the end of the season is ridiculous because it seems to be based solely on "Rice did a few cool dunks that were fun" and "Yesefu and Pettiford pissed me off".

I guess one could argue that maybe guys like Diallo and Selby were not really as good as advertised (based on their NBA careers). Perhaps it had little to do with Self. Then there are other guys like Oubre and Dick who did just fine their first year in Self's system.

StayCurious wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:08 pm I guess one could argue that maybe guys like Diallo and Selby were not really as good as advertised (based on their NBA careers). Perhaps it had little to do with Self. Then there are other guys like Oubre and Dick who did just fine their first year in Self's system.

^^