Kansas Crimson

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:12 pm seems the conflict is cultural and religious, and in the last 75 years, political as well

thanks, gutter, for motivating me to do some reading

i found this interesting and informative:
https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/p ... _main.html

one thing i’ve found interesting, and maybe gutter can shed some light, is that nothing i’ve read draws a distinction between ethnic jews and religious jews (and maybe there isn’t a distinction that matters in this case)

i also found it interesting how relatively little information is available prior to this becoming a political conflict in the mid 1900s

There certainly is. Generally the ultra-orthodox don't think that being in Israel should be a geopolitical matter - it's the land God gave them, so they'll be there.

For someone like me, it's very much a geopolitical thing, giving the Jewish people a voice on the world stage and a (somewhat ironically) safe haven. And it makes sense that it would be in our historical homeland, which Britain and the UN agree to.

thanks for your perspective

honestly though, i put very little weight on what the UN and the Brits think...particularly the Brits. being an early occupier of the land, imo, gives them zero say in how it’s divvied up now.

i think the UN is just trying to keep the peace (as they should)

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:33 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:12 pm seems the conflict is cultural and religious, and in the last 75 years, political as well

thanks, gutter, for motivating me to do some reading

i found this interesting and informative:
https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/p ... _main.html

one thing i’ve found interesting, and maybe gutter can shed some light, is that nothing i’ve read draws a distinction between ethnic jews and religious jews (and maybe there isn’t a distinction that matters in this case)

i also found it interesting how relatively little information is available prior to this becoming a political conflict in the mid 1900s

There certainly is. Generally the ultra-orthodox don't think that being in Israel should be a geopolitical matter - it's the land God gave them, so they'll be there.

For someone like me, it's very much a geopolitical thing, giving the Jewish people a voice on the world stage and a (somewhat ironically) safe haven. And it makes sense that it would be in our historical homeland, which Britain and the UN agree to.

thanks for your perspective

honestly though, i put very little weight on what the UN and the Brits think...particularly the Brits. being an early occupier of the land, imo, gives them zero say in how it’s divvied up now.

i think the UN is just trying to keep the peace (as they should)

Was supposed to be past tense, my mistake, was referring to 1948. I don't see how "Palestinians" have any more of a right to that land than Israel does, it's not like the Palestinians owned it prior to the State of Israel existing.

imo, a single state makes the most sense from an historical perspective

but i don’t think it’s actually possible

gaza, palestine, jerusalem...that whole area has a fascinating history of occupation

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:59 pm

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:33 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm

There certainly is. Generally the ultra-orthodox don't think that being in Israel should be a geopolitical matter - it's the land God gave them, so they'll be there.

For someone like me, it's very much a geopolitical thing, giving the Jewish people a voice on the world stage and a (somewhat ironically) safe haven. And it makes sense that it would be in our historical homeland, which Britain and the UN agree to.

thanks for your perspective

honestly though, i put very little weight on what the UN and the Brits think...particularly the Brits. being an early occupier of the land, imo, gives them zero say in how it’s divvied up now.

i think the UN is just trying to keep the peace (as they should)

Was supposed to be past tense, my mistake, was referring to 1948. I don't see how "Palestinians" have any more of a right to that land than Israel does, it's not like the Palestinians owned it prior to the State of Israel existing.

you’re absolutely right

from what i’ve been reading, Jews seem to have the ultimate historical claim, followed by christians, and then muslims...even though muslims have been the majority religion in the region for longest amounts of time. their majority was the result of invasions and apparently voluntary exodus by Jews between the 3rd and 7th centuries, following the rise of christianity in the region. the roman empire apparently also played a vital role in the reduction of Jews in the region.

This was how close I was to Gaza. Obviously too close for comfort when there are literally hundreds of "rockets" fired in to the town I was standing in on a yearly basis.




This is a photo of a girl who was killed by a rocket fired from Gaza into Sedrot and the second photo is her father.





This was what I was referring to when I said as long as you are not a warmonger, religious fanatic, or terrorist, people (different races, religions, etc.) can and do get along just fine in Israel.












Hard to see but that's smoke from "gunfire". It was laughed off by a local when I asked who was shooting the gun/s and at whom. As if I was supposed to know?




This somewhat gives you perspective of how close everything is in terms of the "holy" sites of 3 different regions.










This kind of blew my mind. This woman was walking in the middle of nowhere. What is in her hand and what is she doing with it?




Masada

I think the woman walking in the middle of nowhere has a laptop and is using it to post in the religion is dum thread.

awesome pics, gutter

my brother works at a private Jewish school (he’s obviously not Jewish), and was asked to help chaperone a trip to Jerusalem several years ago

he had an amazing time and is grateful for the experience. i can only imagine what that trip might mean for an actual Jew

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm awesome pics, gutter

my brother works at a private Jewish school (he’s obviously not Jewish), and was asked to help chaperone a trip to Jerusalem several years ago

he had an amazing time and is grateful for the experience. i can only imagine what that trip might mean for an actual Jew

A lot. College students get to go for 10 days for free, I did that.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:19 pm I think the woman walking in the middle of nowhere has a laptop and is using it to post in the religion is dum thread.

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm awesome pics, gutter

my brother works at a private Jewish school (he’s obviously not Jewish), and was asked to help chaperone a trip to Jerusalem several years ago

he had an amazing time and is grateful for the experience. i can only imagine what that trip might mean for an actual Jew

Thanks Trad. That's just a handful and I have some much better ones.
Obviously I had no idea your bro works at a Jewish school. maybe you can/will elaborate on how that came about. Perhaps in a pm.
The large group (friends and family) I went to Israel with were predominately Jewish but a few were not and I chose to hang with them part of the time and visit several non-Jewish sites.
It's crazy that I work with a 20 something year old who thought only Jews lived in Israel.
On a side note, my NOT being a religious person didn't matter. Still parts of the country and things I saw and experienced blew me away.

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:56 pm

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm awesome pics, gutter

my brother works at a private Jewish school (he’s obviously not Jewish), and was asked to help chaperone a trip to Jerusalem several years ago

he had an amazing time and is grateful for the experience. i can only imagine what that trip might mean for an actual Jew

A lot. College students get to go for 10 days for free, I did that.

Did you do a Birthright trip? Had it existed back when I was 18, 19, 20, I probably would have jumped at the chance.

Back to the conflict.....




PLEASE don't get me wrong boys and girls, as I said before, I feel in SOME ways both sides are assholes - but I sure as heck feel Hamas and Islamic Jihadists are MUCH bigger assholes than my friends and relatives who live in Israel.

MJ23 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 4:12 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:56 pm

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm awesome pics, gutter

my brother works at a private Jewish school (he’s obviously not Jewish), and was asked to help chaperone a trip to Jerusalem several years ago

he had an amazing time and is grateful for the experience. i can only imagine what that trip might mean for an actual Jew

A lot. College students get to go for 10 days for free, I did that.

Did you do a Birthright trip? Had it existed back when I was 18, 19, 20, I probably would have jumped at the chance.

Yep

MJ23 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 4:17 pm Back to the conflict.....




PLEASE don't get me wrong boys and girls, as I said before, I feel in SOME ways both sides are assholes - but I sure as heck feel Hamas and Islamic Jihadists are MUCH bigger assholes than my friends and relatives who live in Israel.

from my somewhat limited reading today, it seems that historically Jews have not been the aggressors in the region. Muslim factions have a history of being the bigger assholes

Many people don't realize it's rare when Tel Aviv is targeted.




To show I am not one sided, here is an example of what they ("Bad guys" in Palestine) are "retaliating" for.
Hard to fault them. Or am I wrong?

if you’ve got time, gutter, the new yorker article i posted gives a more palestinian perspective

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 5:06 pm if you’ve got time, gutter, the new yorker article i posted gives a more palestinian perspective

Coincidently I was reading it this morning and then got a phone call from my mother. I'm going to finish it now.

* Just finished it. Perfect example of where I find fault/s in/with Israel.
I really wish it was as simple as both "sides" just saying fuck it and let's stop this and allow each other to live in peace and stop making so many things territorial.
I try and get perspectives that aren't just from Israelis and often my conclusions are that many Palestinian and Israeli citizens are very similar in that both want the same thing/s - to live in peace.
Unfortunately their "extremists" and leaders (political and military) don't make that easy - nor a reality.

I need to read those articles, and generally go to school on the subject.

But I also saw a headline that Israeli air strikes killed 20 Palestinians, including 9 children, on the Gaza Strip tonight.

Also seeing this quote that “it’s not anti-Semitic to criticize a far-right Israeli gummint”

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:59 pm
Was supposed to be past tense, my mistake, was referring to 1948. I don't see how "Palestinians" have any more of a right to that land than Israel does, it's not like the Palestinians owned it prior to the State of Israel existing.

“They” have been fighting for millennia is kind of a cop out. How many (percentage) of the present citizens of Israel can say that their great grandparents, or even grandparents for that matter, were born in the territory which is currently Israel and what proportion of Palestinians can claim that? I would think that the latter is a much larger number given that a large number of people who migrated from Germany, Poland and Eastern Europe after WWII. Are their claims any more “legitimate” than those who actually can trace their ancestry to the same area (regardless of what it was called) over numerous generations?

In some respects is it that different than the territorial “disputes” of the American West, ca. mid-1800s, especially when viewed through 21st century eyes?