Kansas City thread

[CrimsonNBlue]

I've never heard any complaints about the Sprint Center

The fact that the urinals don't have automatic flushers is pretty crazy considering when it was built.

Also, bring back QuikTrip.

[shindig]

I've never heard any complaints about the Sprint Center

The fact that the urinals don't have automatic flushers is pretty crazy considering when it was built.

Also, bring back QuikTrip.

Meh, but if there was a NBA/NHL tenant, I'm sure all those things would be fixed/replaced. Just move the OKC Thunder to KC. Wouldn't even have to change the name, just drop the O.

[pdub]

KC Phogushers needs a home too.

[CrimsonNBlue]

That was slightly tongue-in-cheek.

We could discuss permanent tenant for days, but, my biggest hesitation is how successful would the venture be with a shitty team/franchise.

Maybe hockey could handle that better even though I personally HATE the idea of NHL over NBA for myself and the city.

[shindig]

That was slightly tongue-in-cheek.

We could discuss permanent tenant for days, but, my biggest hesitation is how successful would the venture be with a shitty team/franchise.

Maybe hockey could handle that better even though I personally HATE the idea of NHL over NBA for myself and the city.

Yeah, it's crazy that KC had all 4 major sports in the 1970's...albeit, the NHL for only a couple years, and the population then was 1.5m and now it's 2.2m. I wouldn't want a shitty team either and just not sure KC is big enough to support another franchise.

[japhy]

I've never heard any complaints about the Sprint Center, it might be sort of a knock-off of Allianz stadium, but that is a futbol stadium and much bigger. I think the Sprint Center will age very well since it's all glass on the outside and there's not really another arena in the US that looks like it. I mean I've been to arenas in St. Louis and OKC, and those arenas are pretty bland looking from the outside, especially the Ford Center. Tulsa has a cool arena, but it seems smaller.

The BOK Center seats about 1,000 less people than Sprint. But Sprint cost about $80M (40%) more than BOK. BOK in my mind is the more interesting sculptural object of the two and the windowless façade makes more sense than covering an arena with glazing. And I realize there is only so much you can do given the size and shape of room you are building with an arena.

The sales pitch at the time of the Sprint selection process was that KC was home to the best sports facility architects in the world, something like 80% of all of the sports facilities in the US over the course of the previous decades were designed in KC. Because this was their hometown, the firms involved would give us the best, most advanced, most up to date, forward thinking arena money could buy. Civic and hometown pride were going to make this thing something the rest of the country would marvel at.

When you hire an architect to “design” a Walmart, they have a prototype plan and you get a competent building. It is utilitarian and it suits the user’s needs and functions well. The Owner doesn’t have any greater expectation than that.

But when you hire the world’s best sports architects with the promise that they will design a forward thinking, world class building; you expect more than just checking off the base line boxes.

My question is if all of the world’s best sports architects worked on that building and it is forward thinking, where do you see it? It is a technologically updated version of Kemper Arena with glazed facade instead of Robertson metal panels in my mind.

That's my complaint, the end product did not live up to the sales pitch.

[ousdahl]

Maybe they could build one at K7 and K10, next to Smiley’s golf complex.

[shindig]

I agree with you japhy, to some extent. I think something more "interesting" like the BOK Center could have been built, but I guess when you have too many chefs in the kitchen, it becomes nearly impossible to come to a consensus and with the City pushing for a final product to get construction rolling.

[jhawks99]

KC Phogushers needs a home too.

There is one, BWW

[pdub]

True.

[jfish26]

I've never heard any complaints about the Sprint Center, it might be sort of a knock-off of Allianz stadium, but that is a futbol stadium and much bigger. I think the Sprint Center will age very well since it's all glass on the outside and there's not really another arena in the US that looks like it. I mean I've been to arenas in St. Louis and OKC, and those arenas are pretty bland looking from the outside, especially the Ford Center. Tulsa has a cool arena, but it seems smaller.

The BOK Center seats about 1,000 less people than Sprint. But Sprint cost about $80M (40%) more than BOK. BOK in my mind is the more interesting sculptural object of the two and the windowless façade makes more sense than covering an arena with glazing. And I realize there is only so much you can do given the size and shape of room you are building with an arena.

The sales pitch at the time of the Sprint selection process was that KC was home to the best sports facility architects in the world, something like 80% of all of the sports facilities in the US over the course of the previous decades were designed in KC. Because this was their hometown, the firms involved would give us the best, most advanced, most up to date, forward thinking arena money could buy. Civic and hometown pride were going to make this thing something the rest of the country would marvel at.

When you hire an architect to “design” a Walmart, they have a prototype plan and you get a competent building. It is utilitarian and it suits the user’s needs and functions well. The Owner doesn’t have any greater expectation than that.

But when you hire the world’s best sports architects with the promise that they will design a forward thinking, world class building; you expect more than just checking off the base line boxes.

My question is if all of the world’s best sports architects worked on that building and it is forward thinking, where do you see it? It is a technologically updated version of Kemper Arena with glazed facade instead of Robertson metal panels in my mind.

That's my complaint, the end product did not live up to the sales pitch.

Was the BOK Center designed to host two professional teams with substantially-concurrent seasons?

I agree that Sprint Center is not particularly interesting, visually, inside or out (god, the giant, exposed concrete slabs inside are just hideous). It's particularly galling and worn out for someone who has spent a lot of time in LA - Sprint is essentially a 0.9x-scale Staples Center.

But I think criticisms of the build cost that leave out the guts of the building are incomplete.

[japhy]

I agree with you japhy, to some extent. I think something more "interesting" like the BOK Center could have been built, but I guess when you have too many chefs in the kitchen, it becomes nearly impossible to come to a consensus and with the City pushing for a final product to get construction rolling.

I don't think the City was who led on the Sprint. There were only two final candidates and two interviews for the design architect. I sat in one of those. The City had their standard questions about what they wanted to know about the architect's design and QC process, boilerplate chain of command stuff. But at one point the guy from AEG got his moment and made the point that he was driving the ship. I suspect he made this point at both interviews, but he definitely made it personal with Frank Gehry. He specifically said that he was only interested in the schedule and the budget and those two things took precedent over everything and he was going to make damn sure that was how it was going to go. Make no mistake, there is always someone who makes the point that budget and schedule are ground zero at any interview. This guy was aggressive about it beyond what I normally see at these events, and made the point while looking directly at Frank Gehry. Several of the associate architects in the room started to respond and Frank just raised his hands and everyone on the architect's side shut up. You don't interrupt the man. He looked the guy from AEG dead on and said calm as can be, "I know how you pushed the design team for the Staples Center and the story behind all of that. I have friends in the Kings organization. If that is how you are going to run this project then we are probably are not the firm for you." It was the most warm syrupy congenial "oh go fuck yourself, you whelp" response that you could imagine from an 80 year old who has paid his dues and proven his worth and has the billionaires of the world begging him to work with them. It took the air out of the room. I could see architects and engineers visibly crumbling around me. It shut the guy from AEG down, he had no response, and the Barnes people chimed back in with comments to soothe things over. It was too late, everything after that was just for show until time was up on the Q&A portion of the interview. To this day I still gleefully recall the look on the face of the AEG guy when he took in the full context of that statement. Make no mistake, I wanted to do that project more than anything at the time. But to walk out of the interview, head held high after watching the old dude take a flamethrower to the bastard who was never going to let us do the job, was sweet beyond words.

OK, so some of my critique of the Sprint Center could be characterized as biased, but let's get real. It isn't an amazing building, it is adequate. Everybody can see that. If you know anything about the work of Frank Gehry you know what he would have designed would have been transformative for downtown KC. And that's what makes the bait and switch from the dream team more disappointing. But Kay Barnes was the only one who saw that from the Ownership/architect selection side of the table and that's how these things go. Rare opportunity missed.

The backstory is Kay Barnes wanted Frank Gehry to do the building. She was told the schedule was too fast and the money was too low for a Gehry designed building. Frank's partners told her that even if he won the interview they may not be able to come to terms on Contract, nothing is a done deal until everything is signed. Her people made it abundantly clear in meetings that if he was chosen those things were negotiable (I heard them say they would get an extra $200M if he was chosen) and what she wanted was a jewel in the city center. She was mesmerized by the idea of the "Bilbao effect" coming to downtown KC. Story goes, she got a face to face with Frank in Santa Monica and was charmed by the guy and his intellect. His office is a sprawling garage building will building models hangin from the roof trusses and drafting tables everywhere and a shop, and in the middle of the chaos is a glass cube where he talks solo with big money clients. It has been a couple of decades since I have been there but I remember there being some of the big cardboard "easy edges" chairs spread around and that is what they sit on while shooting the shit about their project. It would be hard as an Owner to walk away from a meeting like that and not think you had to do whatever it took to have him design your building.

The AEG folks wanted one thing and that was architects who were going to kiss their ass and jump when told to. With no team Ownership representation to intervene or make their own demands, I think everything was driven by AEG. Once the starchitect was out of the picture the personal drive was off for Barnes.

A baseball stadium with a strong team Ownership would have a lot more say. But it sounds like it didn't change the dynamic at the Staples Center. Selecting Pendulum as designer to do something out of the box would be a bold move and it would shake up the status quo. They paid their dues helping get a blighted failed project completed in Lucas district a couple of years ago. That project seemed to have a curse on it and it left a trail of bankrupt small firms in it's wake. At the time I had no idea why they would take that steaming pile of shit on, but it makes sense now. I was impressed with the way they approached it and knocked it out. Best guess is this is the payback (to clarify they likely made no money on this schematic design and renderings, but they have a spot at the table) but they still will have to compete in the end for a contract. The big question this time is will every other sports architecture firm in town team up to keep an interloper from getting a plum job in "their town". Gut feel, I think not. There was too much bad blood after the Sprint Center was over and they won't feel as threatened as they did when a big time architect from LA came into their backyard to steal their lunch money.

But this time around the AEG role has been replaced by JE Dunn. Time will tell how they decide to play this. Big civic projects like this are influenced by politics and power. It's why the best architecture is usually built with private money and a driven by a strong, single minded ownership who let's the architect make big decisions; think Kauffman Center.

[jfish26]

It is certainly my hope* that the next Royals stadium is built with private money.

* "Fantasy" might be the word I'm looking for.

[Deleted User 318]

It is certainly my hope* that the next Royals stadium is built with private money.

* "Fantasy" might be the word I'm looking for.

Sorry, top three answers are

Sales Tax
Hotel Tax
Municipal Bonds

[shindig]

I agree with you japhy, to some extent. I think something more "interesting" like the BOK Center could have been built, but I guess when you have too many chefs in the kitchen, it becomes nearly impossible to come to a consensus and with the City pushing for a final product to get construction rolling.

I don't think the City was who led on the Sprint. There were only two final candidates and two interviews for the design architect. I sat in one of those. The City had their standard questions about what they wanted to know about the architect's design and QC process, boilerplate chain of command stuff. But at one point the guy from AEG got his moment and made the point that he was driving the ship. I suspect he made this point at both interviews, but he definitely made it personal with Frank Gehry. He specifically said that he was only interested in the schedule and the budget and those two things took precedent over everything and he was going to make damn sure that was how it was going to go. Make no mistake, there is always someone who makes the point that budget and schedule are ground zero at any interview. This guy was aggressive about it beyond what I normally see at these events, and made the point while looking directly at Frank Gehry. Several of the associate architects in the room started to respond and Frank just raised his hands and everyone on the architect's side shut up. You don't interrupt the man. He looked the guy from AEG dead on and said calm as can be, "I know how you pushed the design team for the Staples Center and the story behind all of that. I have friends in the Kings organization. If that is how you are going to run this project then we are probably are not the firm for you." It was the most warm syrupy congenial "oh go fuck yourself, you whelp" response that you could imagine from an 80 year old who has paid his dues and proven his worth and has the billionaires of the world begging him to work with them. It took the air out of the room. I could see architects and engineers visibly crumbling around me. It shut the guy from AEG down, he had no response, and the Barnes people chimed back in with comments to soothe things over. It was too late, everything after that was just for show until time was up on the Q&A portion of the interview. To this day I still gleefully recall the look on the face of the AEG guy when he took in the full context of that statement. Make no mistake, I wanted to do that project more than anything at the time. But to walk out of the interview, head held high after watching the old dude take a flamethrower to the bastard who was never going to let us do the job, was sweet beyond words.

OK, so some of my critique of the Sprint Center could be characterized as biased, but let's get real. It isn't an amazing building, it is adequate. Everybody can see that. If you know anything about the work of Frank Gehry you know what he would have designed would have been transformative for downtown KC. And that's what makes the bait and switch from the dream team more disappointing. But Kay Barnes was the only one who saw that from the Ownership/architect selection side of the table and that's how these things go. Rare opportunity missed.

The backstory is Kay Barnes wanted Frank Gehry to do the building. She was told the schedule was too fast and the money was too low for a Gehry designed building. Frank's partners told her that even if he won the interview they may not be able to come to terms on Contract, nothing is a done deal until everything is signed. Her people made it abundantly clear in meetings that if he was chosen those things were negotiable (I heard them say they would get an extra $200M if he was chosen) and what she wanted was a jewel in the city center. She was mesmerized by the idea of the "Bilbao effect" coming to downtown KC. Story goes, she got a face to face with Frank in Santa Monica and was charmed by the guy and his intellect. His office is a sprawling garage building will building models hangin from the roof trusses and drafting tables everywhere and a shop, and in the middle of the chaos is a glass cube where he talks solo with big money clients. It has been a couple of decades since I have been there but I remember there being some of the big cardboard "easy edges" chairs spread around and that is what they sit on while shooting the shit about their project. It would be hard as an Owner to walk away from a meeting like that and not think you had to do whatever it took to have him design your building.

The AEG folks wanted one thing and that was architects who were going to kiss their ass and jump when told to. With no team Ownership representation to intervene or make their own demands, I think everything was driven by AEG. Once the starchitect was out of the picture the personal drive was off for Barnes.

A baseball stadium with a strong team Ownership would have a lot more say. But it sounds like it didn't change the dynamic at the Staples Center. Selecting Pendulum as designer to do something out of the box would be a bold move and it would shake up the status quo. They paid their dues helping get a blighted failed project completed in Lucas district a couple of years ago. That project seemed to have a curse on it and it left a trail of bankrupt small firms in it's wake. At the time I had no idea why they would take that steaming pile of shit on, but it makes sense now. I was impressed with the way they approached it and knocked it out. Best guess is this is the payback (to clarify they likely made no money on this schematic design and renderings, but they have a spot at the table) but they still will have to compete in the end for a contract. The big question this time is will every other sports architecture firm in town team up to keep an interloper from getting a plum job in "their town". Gut feel, I think not. There was too much bad blood after the Sprint Center was over and they won't feel as threatened as they did when a big time architect from LA came into their backyard to steal their lunch money.

But this time around the AEG role has been replaced by JE Dunn. Time will tell how they decide to play this. Big civic projects like this are influenced by politics and power. It's why the best architecture is usually built with private money and a driven by a strong, single minded ownership who let's the architect make big decisions; think Kauffman Center.

That is very interesting insight japhy, thank you for sharing. I remember when they said Gehry was out and being livid. I follow quite a bit of KC development on the KCRag forum and there were quite a few posters that couldn't believe we passed on Gehry, like you said, a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[Soklous]

The hype video that KC Sports Commission credits for landing the 3 NCAA events this week.

[jfish26]

I'm very much on team #KCRaptors.

[holidaysmore]

#KCRaptors would be cool. A damn shame fans won't be in attendance.

[jfish26]

Yes. But hopefully it would put us first in line for the next permanent opportunity.

[Soklous]

You know Mahomes is above the law when he didn’t get touched for his Lawrence talk.