Let’s have a war!

[KUTradition]

maybe this all just boils down to the majority here preferring to believe what western countries are saying vs what russia is saying?

if you’re more inclined to believe russia, given their history (recent and otherwise), that seems to be more of a “you” issue than anything else

[ousdahl]

I mean, if it really can be demonstrated that Merica blew up Nordstrom, what’s that say?

US (a nato ally) and Norway (a nato ally) allegedly blew up Germany’s (a nato ally) pipeline.

What the fuck kind of alliance is that?

It’s an act the US threatened for months, until it happened, at which point they blamed Russia, and you guys lapped it right up.

see, this is the illy type response.

Bear in mind, that’s Hersh’s take. He’s the same dood who won a Pulitzer for his reporting on the Mai Lai Massacre, among other things, apparently.

[ousdahl]

maybe this all just boils down to the majority here preferring to believe what western countries are saying vs what russia is saying?

if you’re more inclined to believe russia, given their history (recent and otherwise), that seems to be more of a “you” issue than anything else

Once again, again again again, AGAIN, I have condemned Russia and their rhetoric and their actions more than anyone.

It’s just that I’ve called bullshit on the west’s actions, too.

(104 pages in, and no one has offered anything to suggest the same folks who deceived us about WMDs in Iraq are suddenly playing us straight now)

I think ALL the war narratives are full of shit.

I don’t know why that’s so difficult to comprehend.

I also don’t know why you and so many others are so determined to frame me as a Russia supporter anyway.

I guess it’s cuz we’re so conditioned to think of it as some inevitably either/or choice?

[Deleted User 863]

No. It's because some of us can use critical thinking skills and others can't.

You keep trying to "both sides do it" to this situation, when in this particular instance it makes you look ridiculous.

We all agree our media misleads us occasionally, maybe even frequently (depending on the source). We've all said it at one time or the other.

We all agree we wish wars never occurred. But we have to be realistic.

You keep saying nobody has offered you anything to support our stances. We have. People who actually like you. And you ignore and then do your usual schtick of 35 mostly unanswerable "questions". So people gave up. Even your internet friends.

And nobody has ever seemed to say it's an "either or choice" for EVERY conflict. Just this particular one.


None of your stances are EVER difficult to comprehend. Mostly because they are all shallow pudding pop fantasy land nonsense. We comprehend them quite clearly. Unfortunately.


It's really no surprise why you come across as such a helpless adult struggling his way through life. You've got a good heart though. I definitely admire that about you. I think you're a good dude. We need more Ousdahls. Well for certain things at least.

[Mjl]

sigh.

add "downplaying nazis" to the long list of reasons this thread sucks.

my second question was actually gonna be about yet another notorious Russian propaganda outlet:

The prime minister of Israel.

Naftali Bennett recently offered an Israeli media station the hot take that he traveled to Moscow in the early days of the war in an attempt to broker a peace deal.

(remember when I said I wish other world leaders would be the grownup in the room and play that role?)

He almost got one, too, apparently - supposedly Russia agreed to knock off the whole "demilitarize and denazify" bullshit and call an end to invading Ukraine, if Ukraine agreed to not join NATO.

Would you make that deal?

Bennett wanted to make that deal. Putin wanted to make that deal. Zelensky wanted to make that deal too.

But, according to Bennett, guess who didn't want to make that deal:

NATO.

rather than ask about that tho, let's scrap that question, just to leave it at this:

Seymour Hersh lulz.

It's "not believing that any of the Russian moral depravity and war crime atrocities have anything to with nazis" not "downplaying nazis".

Oh dear.

https://www.thebulwark.com/no-the-unite ... eace-deal/

"There’s only one problem: Bennett didn’t actually say what Maté and his amen chorus claimed he said. In fact, when Maté posted a two-minute video clip condensed from the Bennett interview (the Russia/Ukraine portion of which is over half an hour long and starts at about two and a half hours in), his tweet soon had a “community note” appended to it providing some helpful context—including the fact that the video clip was deceptively cut:"

[KUTradition]

sigh.

add "downplaying nazis" to the long list of reasons this thread sucks.

my second question was actually gonna be about yet another notorious Russian propaganda outlet:

The prime minister of Israel.

Naftali Bennett recently offered an Israeli media station the hot take that he traveled to Moscow in the early days of the war in an attempt to broker a peace deal.

(remember when I said I wish other world leaders would be the grownup in the room and play that role?)

He almost got one, too, apparently - supposedly Russia agreed to knock off the whole "demilitarize and denazify" bullshit and call an end to invading Ukraine, if Ukraine agreed to not join NATO.

Would you make that deal?

Bennett wanted to make that deal. Putin wanted to make that deal. Zelensky wanted to make that deal too.

But, according to Bennett, guess who didn't want to make that deal:

NATO.

rather than ask about that tho, let's scrap that question, just to leave it at this:

Seymour Hersh lulz.

It's "not believing that any of the Russian moral depravity and war crime atrocities have anything to with nazis" not "downplaying nazis".

Oh dear.

https://www.thebulwark.com/no-the-unite ... eace-deal/

"There’s only one problem: Bennett didn’t actually say what Maté and his amen chorus claimed he said. In fact, when Maté posted a two-minute video clip condensed from the Bennett interview (the Russia/Ukraine portion of which is over half an hour long and starts at about two and a half hours in), his tweet soon had a “community note” appended to it providing some helpful context—including the fact that the video clip was deceptively cut:"

… Slightly earlier in the interview, at about 2 hours and 45 minutes, Bennett makes another significant statement: while the talks achieved some breakthroughs, with Putin agreeing to drop his demands for Ukraine’s demilitarization and “denazification”—which Bennett understood to mean the removal of Volodymyr Zelensky as president of Ukraine—and Zelensky agreeing to drop the goal of NATO membership, all of that juddered to a halt in early April once the reports came in of Russian atrocities in Bucha, the town near Kyiv that had been under Russian occupation in March. As Bennett succinctly puts it: “The Bucha massacre—once that happened I said, it’s over.”..

[KUTradition]

thanks for digging that up, Mjl

[ousdahl]

Yea, good find mjl.

Lots to unpack in that article.

For one thing, and for now just focusing on the bits posted here…

It mentions juddering to a halt in early April, but that’s a month after Bennett went to Russia anyway.

And it mentions being deceptively cut, but doesn’t really say how, then goes on to post the transcript, albeit translated, that spells this much out:

[2:56:58]
Bennett: We can divide the spectrum of leaders, who’s tending more towards “now we have to fight Putin”. . . .

Daum: Because we mustn’t reward the bad guys.

Bennett: Right.

Daum: And who says, “Forget war, everyone loses.”

Bennett: Right. Boris Johnson adopted the aggressive line. Macron and Scholz were more pragmatic, and Biden was both. . . .

[2:59:34]
Bennett: I’ll say this in the broad sense, I think there was a legitimate decision by the West to keep smashing Putin and not—

Daum: What does it mean, “smashing Putin”? Putin was smashing Ukraine.

Bennett: Hold on, yes, but given. . . . I mean the more aggressive approach. I’ll tell you something: I can’t say if they were wrong. My position at the time . . . in this regard, it’s not a national Israeli interest. . . . Anything I did was coordinated down to the last detail with the U.S., Germany and France.

Daum: So they broke off negotiations?

Bennett: Basically, yes. They broke off negotiations and I thought they were wrong. In retrospect, it’s too soon to know.

If I may ask in good faith, help me out here. Where’s the deception? Does Bennett not say - right here in mjl’s own article he otherwise posted as a rebuttal to the allegation western leaders broke off negotiations - that the western leaders broke off negotiations?

And, in favor of a policy of “smashing Putin” instead?

[TDub]

I thought you were gonna let this thread fade away into nothing.


That was a better plan.

[KUTradition]

jfc

negotiations fell apart because of the Bucha massacre…aka war crimes and atrocities committed by russia came to light

Ukraine was even ready to cede russia-occupied Ukrainian territory and agree to not joining NATO

and you wonder why you keep getting labeled as a russian apologist?

[ousdahl]

Yea.

It just blows my mind that you guys can be like “just cut Bennett said they broke off negotiations doesn’t mean Bennett said they broke off negotiations!,” and yet somehow still insist the kooky one is me.

[TDub]

I do like Smashing Putin though

their album

MIGelon Vollies and the Infinite Madness is a good one

Bullet with Buttervly Vings
Fuck You (an ode to himself)
Thru the Eyes of Rubles
Bodies (an ode to Ukraine)
Tales if a scorched Slav

all hits

[ousdahl]

jfc

negotiations fell apart because of the Bucha massacre…aka war crimes and atrocities committed by russia came to light

Ukraine was even ready to cede russia-occupied Ukrainian territory and agree to not joining NATO

and you wonder why you keep getting labeled as a russian apologist?

It’s some question of timeline. Does Bennett say specifically when the west broke off negotiations? Did they just shuffle their feet for a month?

And, I can’t stress this enough. PLEASE stop calling me a Russian apologist. When you say shot like that it makes me wanna keep this thread going until we clear the air about that pathetic gaslighting bullshit.

You’re better and brighter than that, trad. Shit, at this point, even illy is being less of an illy than you.

Besides, I don’t wonder why I keep getting labeled as a Russia apologist. I know why I do - it’s cuz of just how well the western imperial war machine propaganda has conditioned you to do so. (ETA I recognize this much cuz I realize I used to be this way too!)

[ousdahl]

I do like Smashing Putin though

their album

MIGelon Vollies and the Infinite Madness is a good one

Bullet with Buttervly Vings
Fuck You (an ode to himself)
Thru the Eyes of Rubles
Bodies (an ode to Ukraine)
Tales if a scorched Slav

all hits

lol

Fuck it, I’m also doing this:

POTD TDub.

But to be fair, I prefer the earlier album, Soviet Dream

with the first big hit, Chernobyl Rock.

[ousdahl]

…the song that rocks so hard it can literally melt faces!


(sorry)

[TDub]

I do like Smashing Putin though

their album

MIGelon Vollies and the Infinite Madness is a good one

Bullet with Buttervly Vings
Fuck You (an ode to himself)
Thru the Eyes of Rubles
Bodies (an ode to Ukraine)
Tales if a scorched Slav

all hits

lol

Fuck it, I’m also doing this:

POTD TDub.

But to be fair, I prefer the earlier album, Soviet Dream

with the first big hit, Chernobyl Rock.

I kinda like the B side of that album. "Nordstream Dreams"

[KUTradition]

jfc

negotiations fell apart because of the Bucha massacre…aka war crimes and atrocities committed by russia came to light

Ukraine was even ready to cede russia-occupied Ukrainian territory and agree to not joining NATO

and you wonder why you keep getting labeled as a russian apologist?

It’s some question of timeline. Does Bennett say specifically when the west broke off negotiations? Did they just shuffle their feet for a month?

And, I can’t stress this enough. PLEASE stop calling me a Russian apologist. When you say shot like that it makes me wanna keep this thread going until we clear the air about that pathetic gaslighting bullshit.

You’re better and brighter than that, trad. Shit, at this point, even illy is being less of an illy than you.

Besides, I don’t wonder why I keep getting labeled as a Russia apologist. I know why I do - it’s cuz of just how well the western imperial war machine propaganda has conditioned you to do so. (ETA I recognize this much cuz I realize I used to be this way too!)

you aren’t as woke as you’re purporting re: the western propaganda machine

Mjl’s link should’ve indicated as much

you’re just parroting a different kind of propaganda…the taking of twitter stories at face value seems to have you quite triggered (and poorly informed)

[KUTradition]

[TDub]

jfc

negotiations fell apart because of the Bucha massacre…aka war crimes and atrocities committed by russia came to light

Ukraine was even ready to cede russia-occupied Ukrainian territory and agree to not joining NATO

and you wonder why you keep getting labeled as a russian apologist?

It’s some question of timeline. Does Bennett say specifically when the west broke off negotiations? Did they just shuffle their feet for a month?

And, I can’t stress this enough. PLEASE stop calling me a Russian apologist. When you say shot like that it makes me wanna keep this thread going until we clear the air about that pathetic gaslighting bullshit.

You’re better and brighter than that, trad. Shit, at this point, even illy is being less of an illy than you.

Besides, I don’t wonder why I keep getting labeled as a Russia apologist. I know why I do - it’s cuz of just how well the western imperial war machine propaganda has conditioned you to do so. (ETA I recognize this much cuz I realize I used to be this way too!)

you aren’t as woke as you’re purporting re: the western propaganda machine

Mjl’s link should’ve indicated as much

you’re just parroting a different kind of propaganda…the taking of twitter stories at face value seems to have you quite triggered (and poorly informed)

shhh...

im trying to lull this thread to sleep with amazingly clever 90s alt rock puns.

[KUTradition]

this thread is the definition of insanity, from all sides