Page 107 of 251
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:40 pm
by zsn
KUTradition wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:38 am
if russia went home, including from crimea, and Ukraine gave up aspirations for NATO in order to make that happen…i would have zero problem with it
.
.
.
.
what alternative would you support?
That’s the opposite of sovereignty because Ukraine is forced into not joining NATO as a condition of not being invaded and occupied.
My solution is for Russia to unilaterally declare ceasefire and go home and back to 2014 borders. Joining NATO is a Ukrainian decision.
My real solution (won’t happen) is to “disappear” Russian oligarchs the moment they step out of Russia. They will not reappear until the Russian invading forces retreat to pre-2014 positions.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:05 pm
by ousdahl
Well, could sovereignty also potentially extend to allowing the people of the affected regions to decide their own borders?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:11 pm
by ousdahl
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:33 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:55 am
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:18 am
Absolutely not. Russia doesn’t get to dictate by force what Ukraine or any other country does or doesn’t do.
does the United States get to, tho?
No. That’s why I had a problem with the Bushies changing their reasoning for invading Iraq. Afghanistan was ostensibly “self defense”. At least be honest and say we want their oil.
Funny you mention oil. What else do you think all this #StandWithUkraine is about, freedom and democracy?
And if you have a problem with the Bushes and Iraq and Afghanistan, just wait til you realize those are only but a couple examples (albeit bigger ones) in a long and far-reaching history of US imperial meddling.
It’s not like the ruling class used our tax dollars to build hundreds of military bases across the world just for the lulz.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:22 pm
by Mjl
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:33 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:55 am
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:18 am
Absolutely not. Russia doesn’t get to dictate by force what Ukraine or any other country does or doesn’t do.
does the United States get to, tho?
No. That’s why I had a problem with the Bushies changing their reasoning for invading Iraq. Afghanistan was ostensibly “self defense”. At least be honest and say we want their oil.
You think the 2003 invasion was about oil?
That doesn't make sense to me. How did invading them significantly affect anything w/r/t oil and the US?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:27 pm
by KUTradition
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:40 pm
KUTradition wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:38 am
if russia went home, including from crimea, and Ukraine gave up aspirations for NATO in order to make that happen…i would have zero problem with it
.
.
.
.
what alternative would you support?
That’s the opposite of sovereignty because Ukraine is forced into not joining NATO as a condition of not being invaded and occupied.
My solution is for Russia to unilaterally declare ceasefire and go home and back to 2014 borders. Joining NATO is a Ukrainian decision.
My real solution (won’t happen) is to “disappear” Russian oligarchs the moment they step out of Russia. They will not reappear until the Russian invading forces retreat to pre-2014 positions.
i agree with you generally
thing is, we have zero control over what russia does or doesn’t do. in a perfect world Ukraine should absolutely be able to join NATO if it so chooses. but, how exactly does this happen if russia is to be believed? are you on board with the “west” getting drawn into ww3 to facilitate such a thing?
is peace more important than Ukraine getting to join NATO?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:38 pm
by zsn
ousdahl wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:11 pm
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:33 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:55 am
does the United States get to, tho?
No. That’s why I had a problem with the Bushies changing their reasoning for invading Iraq. Afghanistan was ostensibly “self defense”. At least be honest and say we want their oil.
Funny you mention oil. What else do you think all this #StandWithUkraine is about, freedom and democracy?
And if you have a problem with the Bushes and Iraq and Afghanistan, just wait til you realize those are only but a couple examples (albeit bigger ones) in a long and far-reaching history of US imperial meddling.
It’s not like the ruling class used our tax dollars to build hundreds of military bases across the world just for the lulz.
Illy hack your account ousie? This not a case of bothsiderism. I’m not suggesting (never have) that we have been a paragon of virtue or consistency. We have supported a large cast of brutal dictators including those we later went to war against! In fact we have the exemplary distinction of supporting a military dictatorship (Pakistan) in a war against the world’s largest functioning democracy (India) in 1970!
#StandwithUkraine, at least to me, is about standing up to a powerful dictatorship attacking a sovereign less-powerful emerging democracy.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:42 pm
by zsn
KUTradition wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:27 pm
is peace more important than Ukraine getting to join NATO?
Wouldn’t that be rewarding Russia for being a bully? It’s like the window company getting you to replace your windows by throwing rocks through them.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:29 am
by ousdahl
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:38 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:11 pm
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:33 pm
No. That’s why I had a problem with the Bushies changing their reasoning for invading Iraq. Afghanistan was ostensibly “self defense”. At least be honest and say we want their oil.
Funny you mention oil. What else do you think all this #StandWithUkraine is about, freedom and democracy?
And if you have a problem with the Bushes and Iraq and Afghanistan, just wait til you realize those are only but a couple examples (albeit bigger ones) in a long and far-reaching history of US imperial meddling.
It’s not like the ruling class used our tax dollars to build hundreds of military bases across the world just for the lulz.
Illy hack your account ousie? This not a case of bothsiderism. I’m not suggesting (never have) that we have been a paragon of virtue or consistency. We have supported a large cast of brutal dictators including those we later went to war against! In fact we have the exemplary distinction of supporting a military dictatorship (Pakistan) in a war against the world’s largest functioning democracy (India) in 1970!
#StandwithUkraine, at least to me, is about standing up to a powerful dictatorship attacking a sovereign less-powerful emerging democracy.
oh, so you do think this is about freedom and democracy.
any chance you could offer evidence to suggest Ukraine really is closer to an emerging democracy than it is some sorta military dictatorship?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:33 am
by ousdahl
zsn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:42 pm
KUTradition wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:27 pm
is peace more important than Ukraine getting to join NATO?
Wouldn’t that be rewarding Russia for being a bully? It’s like the window company getting you to replace your windows by throwing rocks through them.
flip that question.
is Ukraine getting to join NATO more important than peace?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:05 am
by zsn
It’s not the order. It’s the question itself.
Is getting your child back more important than $2 million or is $2 million more important than getting your child back? The correct answer is kidnapping is a crime and should be punished.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:15 am
by KUTradition
so then should NATO, right now, just invade russia, lock up putin and oversee new elections?
how exactly does doling out punishment work?
and again, i don’t necessarily disagree, but much like Ousie’s kumbaya aspirations, there’s a very real practical aspect of what you’re suggesting
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:10 pm
by ousdahl
“Tell the real story”: Super Bowl slammed for “hijacking the Pat Tillman story”
Tillman was killed by friendly fire in an incident the "military covered up and tried to hide from his family"
https://www.salon.com/2023/02/13/tell-t ... y_partner/
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:58 pm
by twocoach
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:00 pm
by ousdahl
Huh?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:40 am
by Shirley
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:47 am
by Shirley
Dark Brandon, baller:
It is the first time in modern history that a U.S. president has entered a war zone where there is not an active American military presence.
Biden makes surprise visit to Ukraine nearly one year after Russia's invasion
The clandestine journey into the war-ravaged country comes as Biden also heads to Poland to demonstrate U.S. solidarity...
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:54 am
by ousdahl
it’s not even the first time he’s gone to Ukraine, either!
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:52 am
by ousdahl
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:49 am
by TDub
speaking of warzones, Shirley.....this thread.....you've been warned now. Just sneaking in to drop you a note, ill slip out the back door now.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:32 am
by KUTradition