Kansas Crimson

lobster wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:27 am

HouseDivided wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:31 am

DrPepper wrote: ↑Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:16 am I am 49, work in academia, and never have heard a mature woman lament that men do not find them attractive. I suspect these ladies are hitting on you, Psyche. They are searching for a compliment from you.

You and I are the same age, but I have no interest in women who look like that, and even if I did, I would be terrified of giving a compliment and then being accused of creating a hostile work environment or sexually harassing someone. The stakes are too high and the payoff is too low. I keep my head down, do my work, and try not to be noticed as much as possible.

Have you ever tried holding the door open for a woman only have her get offended? I had this happen once on a college campus. It's this kind of thing that makes men not want to even approach women for friendly conversation. Chivalry is dying because of feminism.

Several times, actually. I just borrow a page from Winston Churchill’s playbook. “I am not holding the door for you because you are a lady, but because I am a gentleman.”

Yeah, I remember men back in the 1960s and 1970s, before women started ignoring their demands that we walk through doors EXACTLY when a House Divided type bully wanted us to. We were even instructed to "Hurry Up," by men like that, who would stand at the door, holding it open to insure that we knew that a certain kind of bullying male commanded how and when we could enter a building.

Those days are gone and lots of people open doors for others these days, which is how it should be.

If it was a female professor, then yes. Why would she want someone’s chivalry? What she wants is to be seen as a valuable person and not someone too weak to open a door. Just treat a female professor the same as a male professor... stop viewing and judging them by their sex. While at work, they are professionals and not on a date with you.

I hold doors open for men and women because I'm polite.


Most men who choose to hold doors open for women (or men) do so because they're polite. Not because they view the other person as to weak too open the door....

And even fewer do it to give some fantasy land permission to the person that they can now enter the building. That sounds delusional and paranoid.

DrPepper wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:15 am If it was a female professor, then yes. Why would she want someone’s chivalry? What she wants is to be seen as a valuable person and not someone too weak to open a door. Just treat a female professor the same as a male professor... stop viewing and judging them by their sex. While at work, they are professionals and not on a date with you.

To clarify, I open doors for everyone - regardless of age, ethnicity, or sex - because I was taught that it was the polite thing to do. When women get upset, I use the "I am a gentleman" phrase as a way of letting them know that it is about who I am, not who they are. I had one woman actually refuse to walk through the door. I just smiled and said "Have a great day" as I closed the door behind me and moved on.

Do you know what 100% of women (and men) have done for me when I've held open a door? It may be shocking.... each and every one has done some version of smiling and saying thank you.

So thankfully, I'm comfortable assuming, most people view holding the door open as a courteous thing to do.

Unless someone is carrying something in their arms, the first person who gets to the door, opens the door, and often holds it for the others. Smiles and quick thank-yous ensue. No one runs around the others to be the first to the door so they can hold it for the others.
If it is people walking together, there are typically several doors to open and the door holders alternate by virtue of the door holder now being the last in the group for the next door.
No one makes a big deal about or does it for show. It is just adults walking through a door and no one is trying to impresss anyone else. In other words, common courtesy is pleasant and appreciated by all as long as it is kept at “common.”

Illinois, a lot has been done in academia in recent years to address implicit and explicit bias against women professionals (ie the female Deans, Profs, etc,). I imagine it is a different experience then you probably have working for banks and often outdoors. There is a lot more to it than who opens the door. Actually, with all the training and panels and discussions I’ve had at work, opening doors has never been discussed that I recall. However, it was definitely something I learned very quickly and while a grad student. The exact lesson I learned (And I can remember the exact place and time) was to not run around to open a door nor ever assume that the man is to do all the physical work (ie carrying stuff when loading a van for field work).

DrPepper wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:01 pm Illinois, a lot has been done in academia in recent years to address implicit and explicit bias against women professionals (ie the female Deans, Profs, etc,). I imagine it is a different experience then you probably have working for banks and often outdoors. There is a lot more to it than who opens the door. Actually, with all the training and panels and discussions I’ve had at work, opening doors has never been discussed that I recall. However, it was definitely something I learned very quickly and while a grad student. The exact lesson I learned (And I can remember the exact place and time) was to not run around to open a door nor ever assume that the man is to do all the physical work (ie carrying stuff when loading a van for field work).

The fact that time and money are spent on that kind of stuff goes a long way toward explaining the state of our culture.

If you mean, how bad it has been for women in STEM (minus biology and psychology), then I concur. There have been a lot of professionals who think there is no problem, but problems are still too common.

HouseDivided wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:28 pm

DrPepper wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:01 pm Illinois, a lot has been done in academia in recent years to address implicit and explicit bias against women professionals (ie the female Deans, Profs, etc,). I imagine it is a different experience then you probably have working for banks and often outdoors. There is a lot more to it than who opens the door. Actually, with all the training and panels and discussions I’ve had at work, opening doors has never been discussed that I recall. However, it was definitely something I learned very quickly and while a grad student. The exact lesson I learned (And I can remember the exact place and time) was to not run around to open a door nor ever assume that the man is to do all the physical work (ie carrying stuff when loading a van for field work).

The fact that time and money are spent on that kind of stuff goes a long way toward explaining the state of our culture.

It's 40 years since I remember men bullying women by standing and insisting on holding the door open while one walked up from a long way off. That all changed long ago and people all started doing it out of common courtesy, yet here you and Lobster are still talking about it.

Doesn't seem like the state of our culture, just the problems that some males continue to have with women.

Mansplaining.

In all the years I've held doors open for women I have yet to hear any complain. Most usually just say "thanks."

Lobster's story sounds made up to me.

A little long, but worth a listen.

Have a take. Don’t suck.
What is your Cliff Notes version?

DrPepper wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:20 pm Have a take. Don’t suck.
What is your Cliff Notes version?

Hard to strip it down, but here's what stood out to me:

-She mentions how after 9/11 happened, several people around her at the university were applauding that it happened. She saw that as a hatred for Western society and insensitive to the people who lost lives. That was when she first started questioning what she was being taught by her employer.

-She mentions how she had to turn down more qualified men for certain jobs simply because they wanted to hire a woman

-She now appreciates and understands that most men want to protect and care for women

Oh please, she just recites most of the themes popular against women by raging anti-feminist males in a not very logical or original manner. That all one has to do to gain academic fame as a female is sell out all other women--that's not something new, all of us experienced that kind of woman when we were young and in academic situations, the one young woman who sought male attention and had little interest in her colleagues if they were female.

chiknbut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:24 pm In all the years I've held doors open for women I have yet to hear any complain. Most usually just say "thanks."

Bully.

Folks, Lob’s video link is an hour long interview. I took the time to listen and consider. Below is my very quick draft of cliff notes
{with some of my reactions}. Time stamps are approx.

She and Rubin don’t like group think. {Great, I don’t like group think either.}

12:00 Rubin is upset and claims that indigenous science classes are being meant to “REPLACE” the traditional sciences taught. Then she agrees with him. {IMO, that is absolute hogwash. A lecture or a course on indigenous science is not meant to replace anything, but rather to open up our mostly European-centric minds to the idea that, for example, North American indigenous people had figured out some really great things and we can learn from that knowledge and process and appreciate their often ignored contributions. Do either of these two have something, themselves, to contribute?}

14:00 She looks back now and thinks she was radicalized during graduate school. In fact maybe even being radicalized is an addiction because it makes you feel good. {Why didn’t she just stand up for herself and question anything anybody said? She is now, so there is that.}

17:00 She was appalled at the “leftist” lack of empathy for America and for death at 9/11 at her university (University of Saskatchewan, probably the English department as she studied literature). She said people in her department had a sense of satisfaction or pleasure that America was getting what it deserved. That moment turned her off to leftist/progressive thought.

19:00 She did not like equity hiring (visible minorities and indigenous people) at her university English department. She said no one was allowed to object publicly.
She Called it “political “hiring and she does not like it. {She is welcome to her own thought. However, like it or not, there is value to a Dept having diversity (even if only to advertise that) and she should of spoke up or studied the topic if it bothered her so much. I question her statement that no one was allowed to object.}

21:25 then she backtracks and says she never accepts the premise that two candidates are exactly equal.

23:25 She thinks there’s zero systemic barriers for women or other minorities in STEM. {As a woman experienced or exposed to various STEM fields and at different levels, I reject her belief and her authority on the topic. Are things getting better, yes. Like she said, she has benefited from second-wave feminism.}

27:00. Men are taught now that they must apologize for their privilege and step back and let women make things better.

30:50 She has received a number of emails from men in pain because they love women and they have been told they are oppressing women if they ask them out for a date as if that is some kind of violence. This has caused pain, confusion, and resentment for the men. These men have to hear over and over again how it is only men who are ever abusive. {This sounds exaggerated to me. Can anyone else give credence to her claim?}

34:00 She says there has been a tremendous decline of men attending university. She says that females now dominate statistically {true}. She attributes at least a portion of the rise of females attending college is because men aren’t attending because they do not feel there is a place for them (men) on college campuses. She thinks the relentless man blaming on campuses is causing men to leave college. {Has anyone else ever heard of a man leaving or not attending college for this fear?}

it all sounds like bs