America Failed

Ugh.
RainbowsandUnicorns
Contributor
Posts: 12430
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:19 am

Re: America Failed

Post by RainbowsandUnicorns »

pdub wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:34 am I don't have an issue with you voting for a 3rd party.
Nor do I.
I just can't help but wonder if the primary reason why ousy voted for the particular 3rd party candidate that he chose is because he thought Corn Dawg (or is it Dogg?) would be the most entertaining for him to watch and listen to when he (ousy) is inebriated?
Maybe I'm not giving ousy enough credit and he really did align with Corn Dawg's/Dogg's politics?

Either way, according to the AP, it looks like the Dawg/Dogg had 3,670 other people vote for him in Colorado besides ousy.
I would have bet he would have gotten more votes. Something like maybe..... 3,680. :?
The Justice For All Party people should be demanding a RECOUNT!

In all seriousness, if it was just Kamala vs. Donald and no other 3rd party candidates, I wonder if the Donald still would have won? Or would he have won by even more votes?
Gutter wrote: Fri Nov 8th 2:16pm
New President - New Gutter. I am going to pledge my allegiance to Donald J. Trump and for the next 4 years I am going to be an even bigger asshole than I already am.
User avatar
KUTradition
Contributor
Posts: 13855
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:53 am

Re: America Failed

Post by KUTradition »

there’s a difference between voting 3rd party vs. a fake write-in mockery
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
User avatar
BiggDick
Contributor
Posts: 1004
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:09 am

Re: America Failed

Post by BiggDick »

jfish26 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:14 am

Land doesn't vote.

I don't think there is a serious argument to be made that a more progressive candidate would have changed anything.

The present direction of my thinking is that no particular policy item would have changed anything. The present direction of my thinking is that (1) the result here is consistent with results for incumbent parties globally in 2023-24 - the incumbent party simply is being blamed, everywhere, for post-Covid inflation, and (2) the result here is attributable more to R/right-wing exploitation of our information ecosystem than to anything politically substantive.

Yes, a part of this is an Elon-Vlad point. And that part is whiny and finger-pointy.

But another part is that the Dems probably need to learn that, right or wrong, fair or unfair, the Rs won by reaching and converting low-information voters. Voters who had no basis for even learning that post-Covid inflation was less-bad here than elsewhere, and largely Trump's fault besides.

And it is important that the Dems LEARN from this, as opposed to trying to fight the tide on it.
yea, land doesn't vote.

But, according to the numbers in the article, Sanders had a pretty considerable lead in both number of individual donors, and number of dollars raised.

and, yes. It IS important that Dems LEARN from this!

One thing maybe worth learning is, how and why do Dems end up NOT running the candidate gaining the most donors and dollars during the primaries?

A related thing to learn is, maybe propping up these uninspiring centrists is actually a loosing strategy - especially when that strategy so explicitly banks on trying to win over republican voters...Turns out republicans just don't wanna vote for dems. It's like expecting a dem to vote for a republican! (for real, the numbers here are virtually the same)

for real, Dems managed to leave like 8 figures worth of votes on the table this election. I'm gonna be hammering this point.

For the life of me, I can't figure out how Dems are so inept at maintaining any bullpen of talent at all to coach up...but for DC's "hollowed-out carcasses" theory.

As for post-Covid inflation, yea, the incumbent leaders are being blamed. But, I think Kamala just failed to offer a plan to counter inflation (and other economic issues, not to mention other issues yet) that actually resonated with voters. The actual substance of Kamala's plan wasn't great. But that's not even that big a deal to voters.

The bigger deal is messaging, rhetoric, vibes - a candidate has to win them over, charm them, make them feel good, sell them a ketchup popsicle in white gloves, that sorta thing. Trump, for worse or for worse, is a master of it - at least among those who want to hear it. Kamala, however, was prob even worse about that than actually articulating a substantive plan.

blame the information ecosystem and Elon and Vlad and point fingers all you want, but I think it's also very much wise for Dems to just take the look in the mirror here.
DeletedUser
Posts: 5024
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:35 pm

Re: America Failed

Post by DeletedUser »

BiggDick wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:41 am As for democratic primaries, well...

I think 2016 and 2020 are very much evidence that left-leaning voters really are thirsty for an actual progressive candidate.
I definitely think that's what you're thirsty for. Not sure about Dems as a whole. Maybe white male dems from 18-30? I know your chronological age is closer to or above 40. But your maturity is much closer to that of a 20 year old. Not meant as condescension. You like dick jokes and have never retired from attempting to be the class clown. Which is totally fine. Don't let the old man in, i get it.
User avatar
KUTradition
Contributor
Posts: 13855
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:53 am

Re: America Failed

Post by KUTradition »

there’s a whole lot of cutting off noses to spite the face going on

resident clowns, minorities, Arab-Americans…
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
User avatar
BiggDick
Contributor
Posts: 1004
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:09 am

Re: America Failed

Post by BiggDick »

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:36 am
pdub wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:34 am I don't have an issue with you voting for a 3rd party.
Nor do I.
I just can't help but wonder if the primary reason why ousy voted for the particular 3rd party candidate that he chose is because he thought Corn Dawg (or is it Dogg?) would be the most entertaining for him to watch and listen to when he (ousy) is inebriated?
Maybe I'm not giving ousy enough credit and he really did align with Corn Dawg's/Dogg's politics?

Either way, according to the AP, it looks like the Dawg/Dogg had 3,670 other people vote for him in Colorado besides ousy.
I would have bet he would have gotten more votes. Something like maybe..... 3,680. :?
The Justice For All Party people should be demanding a RECOUNT!

In all seriousness, if it was just Kamala vs. Donald and no other 3rd party candidates, I wonder if the Donald still would have won? Or would he have won by even more votes?
Gimme a little credit bro. I'd at least vote for a candidate based on something more than whether they're entertaining when I'm inebriated. Or, if I WAS voting for a candidate based on entertainment while inebriated, I'd probably go Trey/Trey...Trey Parker and Trey Anastasio.

And give 3rd party voters less credit - as for "if it was just Kamala vs. Donald and no other 3rd party candidates," no need to wonder. If you add up all the 3rd party votes this election season (like about 2 million?), it still like over 10 million short of the difference between the number of voters who came out for Biden in 20 (about 81 million) versus Kamala in 24 (about 68 million).

That's an eee-normous difference in turnout.
User avatar
KUTradition
Contributor
Posts: 13855
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:53 am

Re: America Failed

Post by KUTradition »

KUTradition wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:48 am resident clowns…
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
RainbowsandUnicorns
Contributor
Posts: 12430
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:19 am

Re: America Failed

Post by RainbowsandUnicorns »

BiggDick wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:51 am
RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:36 am
pdub wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:34 am I don't have an issue with you voting for a 3rd party.
Nor do I.
I just can't help but wonder if the primary reason why ousy voted for the particular 3rd party candidate that he chose is because he thought Corn Dawg (or is it Dogg?) would be the most entertaining for him to watch and listen to when he (ousy) is inebriated?
Maybe I'm not giving ousy enough credit and he really did align with Corn Dawg's/Dogg's politics?

Either way, according to the AP, it looks like the Dawg/Dogg had 3,670 other people vote for him in Colorado besides ousy.
I would have bet he would have gotten more votes. Something like maybe..... 3,680. :?
The Justice For All Party people should be demanding a RECOUNT!

In all seriousness, if it was just Kamala vs. Donald and no other 3rd party candidates, I wonder if the Donald still would have won? Or would he have won by even more votes?
Gimme a little credit bro. I'd at least vote for a candidate based on something more than whether they're entertaining when I'm inebriated. Or, if I WAS voting for a candidate based on entertainment while inebriated, I'd probably go Trey/Trey...Trey Parker and Trey Anastasio.

And give 3rd party voters less credit - as for "if it was just Kamala vs. Donald and no other 3rd party candidates," no need to wonder. If you add up all the 3rd party votes this election season (like about 2 million?), it still like over 10 million short of the difference between the number of voters who came out for Biden in 20 (about 81 million) versus Kamala in 24 (about 68 million).

That's an eee-normous difference in turnout.
Yeah, it was a dumb post by me. Most of my posts are dumb.
I'm just here (on the site) for the free entertainment. As at least one wise person on this site has told me, not every post needs to be responded to. I don't listen/read/comprehend very well.

Moving on......

Any significant reason why Biden will be speaking in a few minutes instead of addressing the nation and the world during prime time?
Maybe I should be checking the "Finding New Shit on TV" thread for an answer?
Gutter wrote: Fri Nov 8th 2:16pm
New President - New Gutter. I am going to pledge my allegiance to Donald J. Trump and for the next 4 years I am going to be an even bigger asshole than I already am.
User avatar
BiggDick
Contributor
Posts: 1004
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:09 am

Re: America Failed

Post by BiggDick »

you and me both, gutter.

indeed, not every post has to be responded to. There IS a lot of wisdom to that.

With that said, and since I'm overdue to actually quit the pols board again, I think it's time to actually quit the pols board again. For real this time!

If anyone feels the need to get another shot in, here's your chance! Shoot away! I'm not even gonna come back to contest it!

I'd like to just offer a departing word of advice that I'm hardly the only one who would be doing oneself a favor to unplug from the pols board.

For those who will reject that advice, okay then. Be well, and enjoy the dumpster fire.
User avatar
KUTradition
Contributor
Posts: 13855
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:53 am

Re: America Failed

Post by KUTradition »

Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
Sparko
Contributor
Posts: 17323
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:01 pm

Re: America Failed

Post by Sparko »

I would like to see some hand recounts of votes to ensure that the machines were not tampered with, especially since the Russians went full-bore at us with disinformation and bomb threats to get Putin's puppet elected here. The missing democratic votes in an enthusiastic year with so much at stake are a dog barking in the night. Up to this point, the republicans had lost waves of elections and democrats just ceded the issues they had cared existentially about. Then familiar blaming of Latinos and Palestine seeped into the narrative.
jfish26
Contributor
Posts: 18646
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:41 am

Re: America Failed

Post by jfish26 »

Lots of truth in there.

In hindsight, it turns out that D leadership badly miscalculated the mandate represented by Biden defeating Trump by seven million votes.

You will find lots of posts of mine, from the 2019-2021 period, representative of that miscalculation - where I advocated for Biden and the Ds to fight back against Trump and Trumpism, and win support from 2016 or 2020 Trump voters, by simply improving people's lives.

That happened.

Our economic recovery from Covid was profound. Crime rates and unemployment dropped. Infrastructure was improved.

And Harris got smoked.

In hindsight, the better interpretation of Biden's mandate would have been to take Trump and Trumpism on head-on, as fractious as that would have been.

You'll be able to tell the story of the last ten years of our politics through the words "Garland" and "feeble".

McConnell's outright theft of a Supreme Court seat in 2016 should have been understood for what it was: a signal that the game had changed, and that the Rs would no longer be bound by anything - not customs or norms, not laws, not basic decency and humanity.

And then, the moment McConnell would not take out his party's trash in 2021, the entire weight of the judicial system needed to come down on the whole operation. THEN. Not 2-3 years later, such that Trump would be able to delay justice to the point that it is denied permanently.

Would this approach have stoked division, and resulted in unrest and violence?

Probably.

But the violence that was done to our democracy (and, in all likelihood, our economy) by waiting is far, far more grave.
Sparko
Contributor
Posts: 17323
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:01 pm

Re: America Failed

Post by Sparko »

Fish: you are correct--fight Nazis hard by calling them out and portraying the immense catastrophe that will happen 20 January. I also want proof of life for the voting machines. I hope it is easy to do. Here in Texas I have no confidence that Paxton would not interfere. Again, one of those desperate to stay out jail, win in Ukraine things.
jfish26
Contributor
Posts: 18646
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:41 am

Re: America Failed

Post by jfish26 »

Sparko wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 12:39 pm Fish: you are correct--fight Nazis hard by calling them out and portraying the immense catastrophe that will happen 20 January. I also want proof of life for the voting machines. I hope it is easy to do. Here in Texas I have no confidence that Paxton would not interfere. Again, one of those desperate to stay out jail, win in Ukraine things.
Election reform is now very much a be-careful-what-you-wish-for thing.

In a somewhat-perverse way, our highly segregated and widely distributed system of 50+ sub-elections, with thousands of mini-elections contained within them, represents security against fuckery.

If Ds start to bang the drum right now about election security, then the next Congress will propose a redrafted John Lewis Voting Rights Act that federalizes national elections - and hands the keys to oversight-free MAGA.

That is how 2026/2028 (and perhaps beyond) would be lost on March 3, 2025.
User avatar
MICHHAWK
Posts: 6080
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:01 am

Re: America Failed

Post by MICHHAWK »

you boys have alot of time to reflect. don't pull a muscle on day 2.
RainbowsandUnicorns
Contributor
Posts: 12430
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:19 am

Re: America Failed

Post by RainbowsandUnicorns »

USA stands for United States (of) America.
Very little unity across the country in regards to American citizens as a whole.



Gutter wrote: Fri Nov 8th 2:16pm
New President - New Gutter. I am going to pledge my allegiance to Donald J. Trump and for the next 4 years I am going to be an even bigger asshole than I already am.
User avatar
twocoach
Posts: 20943
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:33 am

Re: America Failed

Post by twocoach »

College girls should stop fucking college boys in order to help assure that they do not find themselves in need of an abortion that they might die waiting for and see how long they continue to support Trump.
User avatar
pdub
Site Admin
Posts: 35782
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:07 am

Re: America Failed

Post by pdub »

There is an American movement going on social media right now for women based on a previous movement that happened in South Korea I guess called 4Bs.

Refuse to date men, have sex with men, get married and have children.
For 4 years.

Young men are gonna be even MORE pissed.
Sparko
Contributor
Posts: 17323
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:01 pm

Re: America Failed

Post by Sparko »

jfish26
Contributor
Posts: 18646
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:41 am

Re: America Failed

Post by jfish26 »

jfish26 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 12:34 pm
Lots of truth in there.

In hindsight, it turns out that D leadership badly miscalculated the mandate represented by Biden defeating Trump by seven million votes.

You will find lots of posts of mine, from the 2019-2021 period, representative of that miscalculation - where I advocated for Biden and the Ds to fight back against Trump and Trumpism, and win support from 2016 or 2020 Trump voters, by simply improving people's lives.

That happened.

Our economic recovery from Covid was profound. Crime rates and unemployment dropped. Infrastructure was improved.

And Harris got smoked.

In hindsight, the better interpretation of Biden's mandate would have been to take Trump and Trumpism on head-on, as fractious as that would have been.

You'll be able to tell the story of the last ten years of our politics through the words "Garland" and "feeble".

McConnell's outright theft of a Supreme Court seat in 2016 should have been understood for what it was: a signal that the game had changed, and that the Rs would no longer be bound by anything - not customs or norms, not laws, not basic decency and humanity.

And then, the moment McConnell would not take out his party's trash in 2021, the entire weight of the judicial system needed to come down on the whole operation. THEN. Not 2-3 years later, such that Trump would be able to delay justice to the point that it is denied permanently.

Would this approach have stoked division, and resulted in unrest and violence?

Probably.

But the violence that was done to our democracy (and, in all likelihood, our economy) by waiting is far, far more grave.
I hadn't read this prior to writing my post, but - this:

The Strategic Failure of 2024 Was Written in 2021

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/the-strate ... f-2024-was
At the beginning of Joe Biden’s presidency he had a choice.

(1) Biden could treat the Trump years as a dire warning about the American constitutional order and focus his agenda on Trump-proofing our democracy.

This approach would have meant:

* Immediately and aggressively pursuing accountability for Donald Trump’s insurrection.

* Pushing expansive voting rights protections alongside Electoral College reforms.

* Aggressively attacking the oligarch class.

* Making the District of Columbia, and possibly Puerto Rico, states.

* Expanding the Supreme Court.

It would have been a radical and divisive path. It would have made Biden tremendously unpopular; not all of it could have been accomplished. This approach would have created intra-party fights and large-scale Democratic losses in 2022. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema would have left the party. Democrats would have had to nuke the filibuster and eventually reap the fallout from that decision. Had Biden taken this ruthless approach, it almost certainly would have resulted in Democratic defeat this week and unified Republican control of the government beginning in 2025.

But some of those structural changes would have gotten through.

Maybe we’d have four more Democratic senators. Maybe AWS would have have been severed from the main body of Amazon. Maybe Starlink wouldn’t have a stranglehold on our national security planning. Maybe there’d be a 7–6 liberal majority on the Supreme Court.

Maybe Donald Trump would have been in prison instead of headed to the White House.

Biden’s other option was: (2) Treat the Trump years as an aberration and govern as if it was 2015.

The logic of this position was strong:

* Governing in a bipartisan manner was the best way to strengthen the non-Trump elements of the Republican party.

* By not aggressively pursuing Trump, Biden avoided turning him into a martyr.

* The best way to take down the national temperature was by being calm and carrying on.

* Fake-it-till-you-make-it is a real phenomenon. By pretending that everything was normal, perhaps political norms would return.

From the vantage point of January 2021, the path of normalcy was going to be arduous and require a great deal of leadership and political skill from both Biden and Nancy Pelosi. But also: It offered the chance to pass meaningful legislation that would improve the lives of real people.

And if Biden pulled it off, then maybe Democrats could do well in 2022 and hold the White House in 2024.

But even more importantly: Maybe Biden’s normalcy would be contagious. The fever of Trumpism might break and America’s authoritarian moment might pass—so that even if Republicans won in 2024, the party would have returned to health by then.

Obviously, Biden chose the second path.

And to his credit, he executed it almost to perfection. Biden worked with Republicans to pass a number of major bipartisan bills, many of them designed to specifically benefit the real-world circumstances of working-class, red-state Republicans.

The policy side of the Biden administration was more successful that anyone had any right to hope for.

But his larger political project—ending the authoritarian threat—failed utterly and completely.

Democrats got the political wipeout of the first option—all the way down to Manchin and Sinema leaving the party in a huff—but without any of the structural Trump-proofing of the system.

And while Biden’s legislative agenda made life better for working-class people in Republican states, it did absolutely nothing to lower their temperature. Republican voters remained as conspiratorial in their outlook and toxic in their desires as they had been on the morning of January 6, 2021. The only difference is that the Biden administration made them fat and happy, with more jobs and rising wages, so that they could conjure imaginary problems instead of having to deal with real ones.

Biden’s choice turned out to be a mistake. It was a tactical success—he accomplished nearly everything he set out to do in pursuit of that second path—but a strategic failure. The entire enterprise was doomed because it fundamentally misunderstood both (a) the nature of the American people and (b) how far down the path to authoritarianism our institutions had already marched.

Now maybe these facts were unknowable in January 2021 and it’s unfair to fault Biden for making the wrong call. But it’s not like no one was having these discussions. If you go back to the Secret pods from that period, Sarah and I talked about these two paths a lot. At the time, Sarah was firmly in Path #2 camp. But while I was open to Path #1—the radical path, which assumed the worst about the American people—even I wasn’t convinced that it was the correct choice.

It was a hard call; a judgment call. And I remember saying at the time that I was glad I wasn’t the one who had to make it.

Some decisions are just too big.

I have a great deal of both sympathy and admiration for Joe Biden. You know this. As a matter of X’s and O’s, he was one of the best presidents of the modern era. He beat Donald Trump, took on a difficult job, and executed his vision. He handled the various crises that fate presented him with skill. And then he stepped aside when the country needed him to.

He’s a good man and I’m grateful to him for his service.

But he failed the primary mission of his presidency. The reason he failed is because he made the wrong strategic call at the outset. And he made the wrong call because he couldn’t see America clearly and didn’t understand the reality of our position.

The point of this discussion is not to cast blame. It’s to make sure that everyone sees America clearly and understands the reality of our position going forward.

In a funny way, it was JD Vance, and not Joe Biden, who understood what was happening.

“We are in a late republican period,” Vance said in 2021. “If we’re going to push back against it, we have to get pretty wild, pretty far out there, and go in directions that a lot of conservatives right now are uncomfortable with.”

This diagnosis is correct. The remaining rump of Americans who are committed to liberalism, the Constitution, and the rule of law had better embrace it.

Joe Biden was given the choice of betting liberal democracy on structures and the levers of power, or on the innate goodness of the American people. He put his entire chip stack on the American people and lost.

We ought not repeat his mistake.
Post Reply