Kansas Crimson

i guess someone shoulda just sent the Yugoslavs some daisies and a doobie and asked them nicely to leave

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:00 am i guess someone shoulda just sent the Yugoslavs some daisies and a doobie and asked them nicely to leave

But bro, why does that have to be so unrealistic? We gotta evolve bro. How do we know it won't work if we don't ever try bro?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:45 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:23 am The Afghanistan war was not dumb.

The Afghanistan nation-building-experiment was dumb.

Wait, so we DIDN’T go for freedom and democracy? Maybe I’m thinking of some other war…as an American it can be hard to keep track of them all.

Why wasn’t the Afghanistan war dumb?

I’ll guess cuz it gave us some outlet after we were collectively so pissed about 911?

Well, it was a terrorist state, run by a terrorist organization, with a terrorist leader, that was hiding and materially enabling the terrorist masterminds who planned and funded the single largest terrorist attack in history.




Honestly, Park. This is just getting silly. You can't have the sock play THIS dumb THIS long. People are starting nto catch on.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:08 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:20 pm See, that’s a big source of our bickering. I think it’s silly to accept such an oversimplified good guy bad guy narrative.

Besides, didn’t nato bomb Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, and Kosovo?

not to mention all the countries nato bombed that weren’t, uh, on the European continent

"Foreign Policy as Social Work," Michael Mandelbaum called it.

Still, you should read a little about what Milosevic did. It ain't light reading.

Indeed, I’m not an expert on Eastern European lulz, so perhaps I need to read up.

Lemme guess: is it something along the lines of, Milosevic civilian bombings bad, nato civilian bombings good?

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:28 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:45 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:23 am The Afghanistan war was not dumb.

The Afghanistan nation-building-experiment was dumb.

Wait, so we DIDN’T go for freedom and democracy? Maybe I’m thinking of some other war…as an American it can be hard to keep track of them all.

Why wasn’t the Afghanistan war dumb?

I’ll guess cuz it gave us some outlet after we were collectively so pissed about 911?

Well, it was a terrorist state, run by a terrorist organization, with a terrorist leader, that was hiding and materially enabling the terrorist masterminds who planned and funded the single largest terrorist attack in history.




Honestly, Park. This is just getting silly. You can't have the sock play THIS dumb THIS long. People are starting nto catch on.

Wasn’t that terrorist attack mostly the Saudis?

And since you once again have little beyond condescension, lemme return the favor:

Are you personally willing to go fight these wars, and to send your own kids too?

Or do you wanna double down on looking like an entitled and hypocritical little pussy?

"Materially enabling the terrorist masterminds who planned and funded the single largest terrorist attack in history"


he didn't say it wasn't Saudis that actually carried out the attack.

Ah.

Thanks for clarifying.

sooo

Did we get ‘em?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:08 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:28 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:45 am

Wait, so we DIDN’T go for freedom and democracy? Maybe I’m thinking of some other war…as an American it can be hard to keep track of them all.

Why wasn’t the Afghanistan war dumb?

I’ll guess cuz it gave us some outlet after we were collectively so pissed about 911?

Well, it was a terrorist state, run by a terrorist organization, with a terrorist leader, that was hiding and materially enabling the terrorist masterminds who planned and funded the single largest terrorist attack in history.




Honestly, Park. This is just getting silly. You can't have the sock play THIS dumb THIS long. People are starting nto catch on.

Wasn’t that terrorist attack mostly the Saudis?

And since you once again have little beyond condescension, lemme return the favor:

Are you personally willing to go fight these wars, and to send your own kids too?

Or do you wanna double down on looking like an entitled and hypocritical little pussy?

PDub?

Meltdown on aisle...Poli board...!

I'm sorry that I have to be so condescending, Park. But I don't know how else to respond to someone with such strong convictions based on such wild ignorance. I mean...we're not talking about political differences here or differences of opinion. It's just flat out ignorance -- and an apparent refusal to do anything about it.

Does it help answer your question if I tell you that one of my kids was accepted to the United States Military Academy (at West Point) class of 2024 but declined the appointment because he/she/it/they wanted a more solid guarantee of being a Marine?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:07 pm Indeed, I’m not an expert on Eastern European lulz, so perhaps I need to read up.

Lemme guess: is it something along the lines of, Milosevic civilian bombings bad, nato civilian bombings good?

You should stop now.

Dangit.

Sorry you guys.

Props to 99 for being the voice of reason.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:07 pm Indeed, I’m not an expert on Eastern European lulz, so perhaps I need to read up.

Lemme guess: is it something along the lines of, Milosevic civilian bombings bad, nato civilian bombings good?

Croatia (1991-1995)

Milosevic was charged with 10 counts of crimes against humanity including persecution, extermination, torture and inhumane acts during the war in Croatia which left more than 25,000 people dead.

He was also accused over the deportation of at least 170,000 Croats and other non-Serbs and the unlawful confinement of thousands in inhumane conditions.

The indictment named more than 700 people who were killed from the Krajina region, eastern and western Slavonia and during the 1991 attack on Vukovar hospital.

After Serb forces took control of Vukovar in November 1991, they took 255 Croat and non-Serb patients from the hospital and allegedly "beat and tortured the victims for hours". Eventually all were shot and killed on a remote farm and buried in a mass grave.

Milosevic also faced 22 counts of war crimes related to the same atrocities.

Bosnia (1992-1995)

Milosevic faced two counts of genocide and complicity in genocide, the gravest of war crimes, for the 1995 Serb massacre of more than 7,000 Muslim boys and men at Srebrenica and the detention of thousands of Bosnian Muslims and Croats in camps in inhumane conditions.

He was further charged with 27 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity including persecution, murder and torture.

The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in December 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group."

The genocide charge specifically listed "the widespread killing of thousands of Bosnian Muslims during and after the take-over of territories", specifically naming the 1995 massacre of Srebrenica, the only period in the Balkan wars officially ruled to constitute genocide by the UN court.

Milosevic was also cited for the killing of thousands of non-Serbs in detention camps, such as the infamous Omarska and Keraterm camps in northwestern Bosnia.

The indictment listed more than 9,000 dead and stated that the former president participated in a "joint criminal enterprise", the purpose of which was the "forcible and permanent removal of the majority of non-Serbs" from certain areas in Bosnia.

In all more than 200,000 people were killed during the Bosnian war.

Kosovo (1998-1999)

Milosevic, together with four of his allies in a "joint criminal enterprise", was accused of having "planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted in a deliberate and widespread or systematic campaign of terror and violence directed at Kosovo Albanian civilians."

There were four charges of crimes against humanity and one of war crimes against Milosevic, including deportation, forcible transfer, murder and persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds.

In 1998-1999 the Yugoslav government cracked down on ethnic Albanians living in the Serbian province of Kosovo. During the conflict more than 10,000 people lost their lives.

The prosecution alleged that Milosevic, Yugoslav president at the time, was individually responsible for "the campaign of terror and violence directed at Kosovo Albanian civilians" and also had superior responsibility for the acts of his subordinates.

By June 1999, approximately 800,000 Kosovo Albanians, or about a third of the entire Kosovo Albanian population, had been expelled from Kosovo. The indictment listed 900 known dead, killed in separate incidents or mass killings such as the January 1999 massacre in Racak which cost 45 lives.

https://www.dw.com/en/the-charges-again ... /a-1931386

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:04 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:07 pm Indeed, I’m not an expert on Eastern European lulz, so perhaps I need to read up.

Lemme guess: is it something along the lines of, Milosevic civilian bombings bad, nato civilian bombings good?

Croatia (1991-1995)

Milosevic was charged with 10 counts of crimes against humanity including persecution, extermination, torture and inhumane acts during the war in Croatia which left more than 25,000 people dead.

He was also accused over the deportation of at least 170,000 Croats and other non-Serbs and the unlawful confinement of thousands in inhumane conditions.

The indictment named more than 700 people who were killed from the Krajina region, eastern and western Slavonia and during the 1991 attack on Vukovar hospital.

After Serb forces took control of Vukovar in November 1991, they took 255 Croat and non-Serb patients from the hospital and allegedly "beat and tortured the victims for hours". Eventually all were shot and killed on a remote farm and buried in a mass grave.

Milosevic also faced 22 counts of war crimes related to the same atrocities.

Bosnia (1992-1995)

Milosevic faced two counts of genocide and complicity in genocide, the gravest of war crimes, for the 1995 Serb massacre of more than 7,000 Muslim boys and men at Srebrenica and the detention of thousands of Bosnian Muslims and Croats in camps in inhumane conditions.

He was further charged with 27 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity including persecution, murder and torture.

The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in December 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group."

The genocide charge specifically listed "the widespread killing of thousands of Bosnian Muslims during and after the take-over of territories", specifically naming the 1995 massacre of Srebrenica, the only period in the Balkan wars officially ruled to constitute genocide by the UN court.

Milosevic was also cited for the killing of thousands of non-Serbs in detention camps, such as the infamous Omarska and Keraterm camps in northwestern Bosnia.

The indictment listed more than 9,000 dead and stated that the former president participated in a "joint criminal enterprise", the purpose of which was the "forcible and permanent removal of the majority of non-Serbs" from certain areas in Bosnia.

In all more than 200,000 people were killed during the Bosnian war.

Kosovo (1998-1999)

Milosevic, together with four of his allies in a "joint criminal enterprise", was accused of having "planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted in a deliberate and widespread or systematic campaign of terror and violence directed at Kosovo Albanian civilians."

There were four charges of crimes against humanity and one of war crimes against Milosevic, including deportation, forcible transfer, murder and persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds.

In 1998-1999 the Yugoslav government cracked down on ethnic Albanians living in the Serbian province of Kosovo. During the conflict more than 10,000 people lost their lives.

The prosecution alleged that Milosevic, Yugoslav president at the time, was individually responsible for "the campaign of terror and violence directed at Kosovo Albanian civilians" and also had superior responsibility for the acts of his subordinates.

By June 1999, approximately 800,000 Kosovo Albanians, or about a third of the entire Kosovo Albanian population, had been expelled from Kosovo. The indictment listed 900 known dead, killed in separate incidents or mass killings such as the January 1999 massacre in Racak which cost 45 lives.

https://www.dw.com/en/the-charges-again ... /a-1931386

nbd

Sad:

1 hour ago: Russian army fully surrounds Bakhmut - Ukrainian army considering strategic retreat

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:28 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:45 am

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:23 am The Afghanistan war was not dumb.

The Afghanistan nation-building-experiment was dumb.

Wait, so we DIDN’T go for freedom and democracy? Maybe I’m thinking of some other war…as an American it can be hard to keep track of them all.

Why wasn’t the Afghanistan war dumb?

I’ll guess cuz it gave us some outlet after we were collectively so pissed about 911?

Well, it was a terrorist state, run by a terrorist organization, with a terrorist leader, that was hiding and materially enabling the terrorist masterminds who planned and funded the single largest terrorist attack in history.




Honestly, Park. This is just getting silly. You can't have the sock play THIS dumb THIS long. People are starting nto catch on.

I started using an AI text generator program when I started this thread. It is called relentlessblatherbot. I have been pretty impressed with it so far. You might consider trying it for your Randy sock. It takes a lot of the work out of generating this much content. The program has a setting called "dazzlingly erratic" which I use for it to decide which questions or comments to respond to or ignore, and then it switches to "too many gummies" to choose new directions of inquiry to pursue. It will sing the text to me if I want using Jerry Garcia or Paul Hudson's (HR) voice. Both are pretty neat, but I can't understand a word HR says.

once again, I'm sorry you guys. It sucks that this thread has to be so controversial. Going forward, I'm gonna avoid bickering. There's something about this thread that turns us into assholes, and I don't wanna be an asshole, so I'm gonna really try not to.

if I could try to make some grander observation, I really think the only difference between me and you guys is, I'm skeptical of everything surrounding the war narratives. All of them. From all the sides. I hope that's not stirring the pot to say that.

I just wanted to take another shot at this thread, but this time, change gears a little. Cuz, this shit might make me even more nervous than Ukraine...

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 023-03-02/

so, who gets to decide to whom the US sells arms?

china?

or, how about this…should the US (and the rest of the world) just bend the knee to china re: Taiwan so we can keep getting cheap shit?

what knee is bent here? And is arms the only available course of action? Have we exhausted all diplomatic efforts? Have we even attempted diplomatic efforts?

my concern is less about who gets to decide to whom the US sells arms, and more something along the lines of, can't the US on the world stage be less of just some arms broker, and more of an adult in the room?

and, is the thought of selling arms supposed to end with that thought, as if selling arms is some god-given right to America; or are we allowed to consider the potential consequences this time?