Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:58 am
wait gutter so are you saying he's...Worthy?
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Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:20 am
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:22 am
There isn't enough of a different between Worthy's era and Wiggins era to be relevant.
Average scoring in Worthy's era (82-83 season to 93-94 season) ranged from an average of 101 ppg to 111 ppg.
Average scoring in Wiggins' era (14-15 season to 21-22 season) ranged from an average of 100 ppg to 112 ppg.
Average rebounds per game in both eras have been between 43-46 in both eras. Field goal percentages are lower now but the increase in 3 pt field goals offsets that as teams move away from the "Showtime" transition game era to today's "Chuck It" era.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:19 pm
Worthy spent two additional years in college but was also the number one overall pick in the draft like Wiggins--and was a McDonald's all star in HS like Wiggins. Played in LA which was a media center. Imagine if he played in Philly during the MVP years? If Embiid and Wiggins had stayed three years, who knows?
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:22 pm
Imagine if LeBron realized what we all did in that he would have benefitted tremendously from having an athletic, durable defender next to him in Cleveland and could have brought multiple championships to the Mistake on the Lake.
Year after year we heard about how LeBron needed more athletes around him rather than guys 5 years past their prime.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:29 pm
Cleveland could have had a core similar to this for years:
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:11 pm
Wiggins got drafted 9 years ago and we're just now having this conversation. I don't think he was prepared then to do what he is doing now and I don't think LeBron had 9 years to wait for Wiggins to get to this point in his development. James has won 2 titles since that trade so it seems to have worked out just fine.CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:29 pm Cleveland could have had a core similar to this for years:
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:23 pm
I disagree with pretty much all of this.twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:11 pmWiggins got drafted 9 years ago and we're just now having this conversation. I don't think he was prepared then to do what he is doing now and I don't think LeBron had 9 years to wait for Wiggins to get to this point in his development. James has won 2 titles since that trade so it seems to have worked out just fine.CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:29 pm Cleveland could have had a core similar to this for years:
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
Wiggins was one of the most athletically ready players we have seen since LeBron. It's a huge reason why he was like the 6th fastest player to 2,000 points. LeBron's teams had a huge need for the athleticism and he traded Wiggs for a rebounder that could shoot but not move on a max contract.
Maybe the biggest thing, though, is that Wiggins's development is a lot different playing with LeBron and not in Minny. Less points, but becomes more well-rounded a lot quicker. And then wins titles.
Trading for Love worked out fine if the goal was to win one title in Cleveland. LeBron only winning 2 titles at the age of 30 and beyond--2 in his last 10 years+ of basketball--is exactly why he's not likely to go down as the greatest of all time.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:35 pm
Yeah, maybe. Who knows. And it feels more like LeBron losing any finals series, let alone multiple, while MJ never lost a finals series is mostly why he'll never be considered the GOAT by many fans. Accumulating way more stats due to starting earlier, playing longer and not taking a self-imposed break due to gambling problems er.... a sudden desire to play Double A baseball, isn't going to be enough.CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:23 pmI disagree with pretty much all of this.twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:11 pmWiggins got drafted 9 years ago and we're just now having this conversation. I don't think he was prepared then to do what he is doing now and I don't think LeBron had 9 years to wait for Wiggins to get to this point in his development. James has won 2 titles since that trade so it seems to have worked out just fine.CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:29 pm Cleveland could have had a core similar to this for years:
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
Wiggins was one of the most athletically ready players we have seen since LeBron. It's a huge reason why he was like the 6th fastest player to 2,000 points. LeBron's teams had a huge need for the athleticism and he traded Wiggs for a rebounder that could shoot but not move on a max contract.
Maybe the biggest thing, though, is that Wiggins's development is a lot different playing with LeBron and not in Minny. Less points, but becomes more well-rounded a lot quicker. And then wins titles.
Trading for Love worked out fine if the goal was to win one title in Cleveland. LeBron only winning 2 titles at the age of 30 and beyond--2 in his last 10 years+ of basketball--is exactly why he's not likely to go down as the greatest of all time.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:58 pm
I don't like the total argument either, but it's interesting to dig into that a bit more. If MJ and LeBron flipped shot attempts, but kept their same percentages, LeBron would still have more points.
MJ played 327 less games and only took 2288 less shots. That's 4 full seasons at 7 shots per game. To put MJ's career usage in perspective, LeBron would have 40,843 points right now if he had the same shot usage, while keeping the same career percentages, over his 19 years.
But people will still say MJ was the better scorer like it's a fact.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:07 pm
the game is the same as the 80s. got it.twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:22 amThere isn't enough of a different between Worthy's era and Wiggins era to be relevant.
Average scoring in Worthy's era (82-83 season to 93-94 season) ranged from an average of 101 ppg to 111 ppg.
Average scoring in Wiggins' era (14-15 season to 21-22 season) ranged from an average of 100 ppg to 112 ppg.
Average rebounds per game in both eras have been between 43-46 in both eras. Field goal percentages are lower now but the increase in 3 pt field goals offsets that as teams move away from the "Showtime" transition game era to today's "Chuck It" era.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:07 pm
MJ was the more exciting scorer. I'd rather watch him in ISO than James all day, every day. He was a damn magician out there.NDballer13 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:58 pmI don't like the total argument either, but it's interesting to dig into that a bit more. If MJ and LeBron flipped shot attempts, but kept their same percentages, LeBron would still have more points.
MJ played 327 less games and only took 2288 less shots. That's 4 full seasons at 7 shots per game. To put MJ's career usage in perspective, LeBron would have 40,843 points right now if he had the same shot usage, while keeping the same career percentages, over his 19 years.
But people will still say MJ was the better scorer like it's a fact.
James is the more versatile combo of scorer/facilitator/rebounder.
It's a Lamborghini vs. Bentley argument.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:08 pm
Well I think if LeBron were to add two more non-bubble titles then it's a lot harder to argue for MJ. I just don't see that happening at this point. Post-Heat has not been entirely graceful.twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:35 pmYeah, maybe. Who knows. And it feels more like LeBron losing any finals series, let alone multiple, while MJ never lost a finals series is mostly why he'll never be considered the GOAT by many fans. Accumulating way more stats due to starting earlier, playing longer and not taking a self-imposed break due to gambling problems er.... a sudden desire to play Double A baseball, isn't going to be enough.CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:23 pmI disagree with pretty much all of this.twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:11 pm
Wiggins got drafted 9 years ago and we're just now having this conversation. I don't think he was prepared then to do what he is doing now and I don't think LeBron had 9 years to wait for Wiggins to get to this point in his development. James has won 2 titles since that trade so it seems to have worked out just fine.
Wiggins was one of the most athletically ready players we have seen since LeBron. It's a huge reason why he was like the 6th fastest player to 2,000 points. LeBron's teams had a huge need for the athleticism and he traded Wiggs for a rebounder that could shoot but not move on a max contract.
Maybe the biggest thing, though, is that Wiggins's development is a lot different playing with LeBron and not in Minny. Less points, but becomes more well-rounded a lot quicker. And then wins titles.
Trading for Love worked out fine if the goal was to win one title in Cleveland. LeBron only winning 2 titles at the age of 30 and beyond--2 in his last 10 years+ of basketball--is exactly why he's not likely to go down as the greatest of all time.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:12 pm
No, it isn't "the same". Different routes to the same basic stats. If you tried to compare players based on their shooting percentages for 2 or 3 point range then yeah, I'd say "different era, stats mean different things". But if two teams scored both score 110 points then what's the difference to you?TDub wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:07 pmthe game is the same as the 80s. got it.twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:22 amThere isn't enough of a different between Worthy's era and Wiggins era to be relevant.
Average scoring in Worthy's era (82-83 season to 93-94 season) ranged from an average of 101 ppg to 111 ppg.
Average scoring in Wiggins' era (14-15 season to 21-22 season) ranged from an average of 100 ppg to 112 ppg.
Average rebounds per game in both eras have been between 43-46 in both eras. Field goal percentages are lower now but the increase in 3 pt field goals offsets that as teams move away from the "Showtime" transition game era to today's "Chuck It" era.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:21 pm
Mid-80's on is when you can say the studs in those days would have been studs at any time.
And tangent, while there's more talent now than ever, doesn't mean it's the best shape the league has ever been in. NBA is losing a little steam for me. I expect there will be an in-season tournament soon to help that, and I actually think it is a great idea.
KU-UNC had higher TV ratings, despite being on cable, than any NBA Finals game yet.
And tangent, while there's more talent now than ever, doesn't mean it's the best shape the league has ever been in. NBA is losing a little steam for me. I expect there will be an in-season tournament soon to help that, and I actually think it is a great idea.
KU-UNC had higher TV ratings, despite being on cable, than any NBA Finals game yet.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:22 pm
the entire style of play being completely different doesn't impact stats. Just raw numbers huh?twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:12 pmNo, it isn't "the same". Different routes to the same basic stats. If you tried to compare players based on their shooting percentages for 2 or 3 point range then yeah, I'd say "different era, stats mean different things". But if two teams scored both score 110 points then what's the difference to you?TDub wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:07 pmthe game is the same as the 80s. got it.twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:22 am
There isn't enough of a different between Worthy's era and Wiggins era to be relevant.
Average scoring in Worthy's era (82-83 season to 93-94 season) ranged from an average of 101 ppg to 111 ppg.
Average scoring in Wiggins' era (14-15 season to 21-22 season) ranged from an average of 100 ppg to 112 ppg.
Average rebounds per game in both eras have been between 43-46 in both eras. Field goal percentages are lower now but the increase in 3 pt field goals offsets that as teams move away from the "Showtime" transition game era to today's "Chuck It" era.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:31 pm
And they could have signed Love as a free agent, just gotten him a year late.CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:29 pm Cleveland could have had a core similar to this for years:
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:33 pm
PhDhawk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:31 pmAnd they could have signed Love as a free agent, just gotten him a year late.CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:29 pm Cleveland could have had a core similar to this for years:
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
Bronbois are about to have a meltdown with this talk.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:35 pm
We covered the difference in "style of play" when I nopted that there is less transition buckets now than then but more threes now than then which has resulted in the differences in such stats as FG% and 3pt fg%. But the net result is that scoring now is pretty much the same as in Worthy's era.TDub wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:22 pmthe entire style of play being completely different doesn't impact stats. Just raw numbers huh?twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:12 pmNo, it isn't "the same". Different routes to the same basic stats. If you tried to compare players based on their shooting percentages for 2 or 3 point range then yeah, I'd say "different era, stats mean different things". But if two teams scored both score 110 points then what's the difference to you?
But I would love to hear your theories on how scoring stats per game are different between a team that scored 110ppg in 1985 than a team that scored 110 ppg in 2020. My mind is open to being convinced so feel free to provide some sort of content that supports your belief that there is a difference between the two eras in core stats such as scoring/rebounds/assists.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:40 pm
Which is weird since so many people told me that NIL ruined their interest in ncaa hoops.CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:21 pm Mid-80's on is when you can say the studs in those days would have been studs at any time.
And tangent, while there's more talent now than ever, doesn't mean it's the best shape the league has ever been in. NBA is losing a little steam for me. I expect there will be an in-season tournament soon to help that, and I actually think it is a great idea.
KU-UNC had higher TV ratings, despite being on cable, than any NBA Finals game yet.