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Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:45 pm
by twocoach
PhDhawk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:31 pm
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:29 pm
Cleveland could have had a core similar to this for years:
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
And they could have signed Love as a free agent, just gotten him a year late.
It certainly would be fascinating to know what would have happened if the Cavs didn't make that trade. Same as if the "Chris Paul to the Lakers" trade would have been allowed.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:50 pm
by NDballer13
twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:07 pm
NDballer13 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:58 pm
twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:35 pm
Accumulating way more stats due to starting earlier, playing longer and not taking a self-imposed break due to gambling problems er.... a sudden desire to play Double A baseball, isn't going to be enough.
I don't like the total argument either, but it's interesting to dig into that a bit more. If MJ and LeBron flipped shot attempts, but kept their same percentages, LeBron would still have more points.
MJ played 327 less games and only took 2288 less shots. That's 4 full seasons at 7 shots per game. To put MJ's career usage in perspective, LeBron would have 40,843 points right now if he had the same shot usage, while keeping the same career percentages, over his 19 years.
But people will still say MJ was the better scorer like it's a fact.
MJ was the more exciting scorer. I'd rather watch him in ISO than James all day, every day. He was a damn magician out there.
James is the more versatile combo of scorer/facilitator/rebounder.
It's a Lamborghini vs. Bentley argument.
MJ in the midrange is beauty you can't put into words. LeBron understands there's no value in the 20 foot 2 pointer, so most of his shots either come at the rim or from 3. Didn't take the time to figure out what the comparisons would be if if the 2 point FG's were broken down, also because that was available until like the last 3-4 years of MJ's career, but I would bet it would be significantly different if we're comparing percentages from 12-20 feet opposed to lumping all 2 point attempts together.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:57 pm
by KUTradition
until bron wins the dunk contest and takes flight from the free-throw line, he’ll always be second best (which we all know is the first looser)
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:19 pm
by twocoach
NDballer13 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:50 pm
twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:07 pm
NDballer13 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:58 pm
I don't like the total argument either, but it's interesting to dig into that a bit more. If MJ and LeBron flipped shot attempts, but kept their same percentages, LeBron would still have more points.
MJ played 327 less games and only took 2288 less shots. That's 4 full seasons at 7 shots per game. To put MJ's career usage in perspective, LeBron would have 40,843 points right now if he had the same shot usage, while keeping the same career percentages, over his 19 years.
But people will still say MJ was the better scorer like it's a fact.
MJ was the more exciting scorer. I'd rather watch him in ISO than James all day, every day. He was a damn magician out there.
James is the more versatile combo of scorer/facilitator/rebounder.
It's a Lamborghini vs. Bentley argument.
MJ in the midrange is beauty you can't put into words. LeBron understands there's no value in the 20 foot 2 pointer, so most of his shots either come at the rim or from 3. Didn't take the time to figure out what the comparisons would be if if the 2 point FG's were broken down, also because that was available until like the last 3-4 years of MJ's career, but I would bet it would be significantly different if we're comparing percentages from 12-20 feet opposed to lumping all 2 point attempts together.
While that is important is determining what style or player you enjoyed watching more or in who is more efficient, none of "where did they get their shots" has anything to do with comparing basic stats such as scoring per game between eras that had nearly identical averaging points per game scored from a team perspective.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:38 pm
by CrimsonNBlue
PhDhawk wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:31 pm
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:29 pm
Cleveland could have had a core similar to this for years:
Kyrie
DeRozan
Wiggins
LeBron
Tristan
And maybe they could have swapped out DeRozan and brought a Durant or Melo in. It's quite possible the Golden State dynasty wouldn't have happened were it not for GM Bron.
And they could have signed Love as a free agent, just gotten him a year late.
Yes, it was incredibly short-sighted. The East really sucked back then but still, LeBron tends to think in 9 month increments.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:57 pm
by Sparko
Steph may be GOAT after three more championships
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:32 am
by Deleted User 863
Steph can never be the GOAT.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:46 am
by Sparko
True. Wilt remains in that role forever. But Steph is an offensive juggernaut. A better shooter off balance than Jordan or Bron unguarded.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:59 am
by Deleted User 863
MJ is the GOAT.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:14 am
by Overlander
This.
But, Curry is the best shooter I have ever watched
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:19 am
by Deleted User 863
Overlander wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:14 am
This.
But, Curry is the best shooter I have ever watched
Agreed.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:29 pm
by Sparko
If you value marketing, MJ is GOAT. Curry's argument is pretty compelling as they continue to win titles. I was reluctant to give him his due, but some of those drives last night were incredible.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:42 pm
by CrimsonNBlue
Curry's the best shooter I've ever seen, but the GOAT talk is really far out there.
I will say, after this season, I feel more comfortable putting Curry ahead of guys like Payton, Stockton, even Oscar Robertson. But, he has a very long way to go before catching Magic and Isiah.
Before this season, I would have had Curry maybe just a smidgen above Kidd and Nash.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:44 pm
by Overlander
Curry has to be top 10 all time…..doesn’t he?
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:49 pm
by CrimsonNBlue
Overlander wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:44 pm
Curry has to be top 10 all time…..doesn’t he?
I don't think so. Maybe top 15, and I know it's weird to say that a Top 15 guy isn't close to the Top 10, but I think there are zero arguments that Curry is better than:
MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Olajuwon
Russell
Duncan
Kobe
Durant
But I'm now ok having Curry over Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone, Julius Erving. That would put him top 15.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:34 pm
by Overlander
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:49 pm
Overlander wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:44 pm
Curry has to be top 10 all time…..doesn’t he?
I don't think so. Maybe top 15, and I know it's weird to say that a Top 15 guy isn't close to the Top 10, but I think there are zero arguments that Curry is better than:
MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Olajuwon
Russell
Duncan
Kobe
Durant
But I'm now ok having Curry over Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone, Julius Erving. That would put him top 15.
Damn, that is a great list.
Good point
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:31 pm
by KUTradition
jmo, but an honest assessment can’t really be made just yet
history will judge
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:50 pm
by Deleted User 863
He's certainly ahead of Durant.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:58 pm
by jhawks99
Dr J would be hard to keep outta the top 10. Dude was pretty freakin amazing.
Re: Jawhawks in the NBA
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:05 pm
by CrimsonNBlue