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Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:30 pm
by twocoach
jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:29 pm
twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:21 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:11 am
I think what's frustrating is that, as has been noted, Dave playing to his potential is a game-altering monster. Jalen playing to his potential is...a nice college player.
And by all rights Dave
should have found a higher floor by this point in his career.
Oh, boy. DMac has had 6 games in his 98 game KU career where he has scored more than 18 points. Six.
Wilson has had 4 in 34 career KU games.
I think you might be laying on the superlatives a bit thick to try to make your point. I know that one amazing game he had against UMKC was intoxicating but he really has done nothing to justify "his potential is a game-altering monster."
It's totally subjective, I'll admit. I just think we have more to gain as a team from Dave figuring it out, than Jalen.
I vote for them both figuring it out since we are only 6 games into the season. They aren't a one or the other set.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:33 pm
by ousdahl
Yeah, Dave is our only legit D1-sized center
(At least til Zach tacks on 20 pounds and gets some ink)
That’s something we’re more likely to need, and more likely to miss if we didn’t have, than a versatile wing, of which we have several
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:37 pm
by Deleted User 89
i don’t think it’s a stretch to say that this team’s ceiling is Dave’s ceiling
him playing to his potential elevates this team more than Jalen playing to his potential does
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:42 pm
by ousdahl
Hmm.
I dunno.
I still think Dave could be a rich man’s Landen-type utility big, surrounded by productive guards and wings, and still contend.
But that’s a big could, cuz Dave is just not always the most fundamental.
If he’s actually scoring from the post with his weird little hooks and runners and fadeaways and shit, great, but it still just doesn’t strike me as a critical piece. Or thee critical piece.
We need defense and rebounds from him more than we need scoring. Not that we should stop him from scoring.
(Unless his playing out of control again, in which case his attempts to score might as well effectively count as turnovers)
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:51 pm
by ousdahl
How often did we throw the ball to Landen in the post?
Was it a “we have to do this for the first several possessions of every game” kinda thing?
Cuz I know the point of post feeds is to try and establish it to open things up for everybody else.
But sometimes, particularly with Dave (and then Mitch), it feels like it’s just this arbitrary thing we stubbornly try, even if Dave is doubled and the angles aren’t there, until we get something else going.
Could we approach it the other way around? Maybe come out with lots of guards moving in a PnR offense, and once the D is worried about checking the perimeter, then start looking for the post feeds.
(Or just let post scoring come more from dishes and lobs as a result of guards moving the ball, rather than deliberately tossing it to a guy with his back to the basket while the guards just kinda stand around)
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:47 pm
by CrimsonNBlue
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:51 pmCould we approach it the other way around? Maybe come out with lots of guards moving in a PnR offense, and once the D is worried about checking the perimeter,
then start looking for the post feeds.
Bill Self has been coaching for 3 decades. I also doubt Boeheim is just going to go away from the zone defense.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:52 pm
by jfish26
TraditionKU wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:37 pm
i don’t think it’s a stretch to say that this team’s ceiling is Dave’s ceiling
him playing to his potential elevates this team more than Jalen playing to his potential does
This is generally how I feel.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:03 pm
by CrimsonNBlue
And I think we are asking even less from him than that.
Dave just give needs to give us what we have already seen from him, but on a much more consistent basis and we are with Gonzaga and Purdue as National Championship contenders.
In no way was this season about Jalen taking a huge leap and being a first round draft talent.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:25 pm
by PhDhawk
CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:03 pm
And I think we are asking even less from him than that.
Dave just give needs to give us what we have already seen from him,
but on a much more consistent basis and we are with Gonzaga and Purdue as National Championship contenders.
In no way was this season about Jalen taking a huge leap and being a first round draft talent.
Bolded is what matters.
There's no doubt in my mind that McCormack has a ~10 game stretch where he averages 18/8/1.5 with 55%FG, I'm not even really worried about that.
What concerns me is that he can so easily revert to this, and it's in a sport where everything hinges on a single elimination tournament.
We can win with him having on off night, we can't win with him playing like complete dog shit for a stretch of time.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:58 pm
by ousdahl
Well even if Dave is off one night, NBD cuz our depth affords a fairly seamless continuation of front court production from…nm
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:33 pm
by PhDhawk
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:58 pm
Well even if Dave is off one night, NBD cuz our depth affords a fairly seamless continuation of front court production from…nm
If it helps you sleep, I think Clemence continues to improve and probably passes Mitch on the depth chart at some point. Maybe Adams as well.
Self said several times in interviews just prior to the season that some of the veterans were ahead now and may not be later. I assumed that include Mitch.
Remember we're 6 games into the season and they're both freshman. They could be a lot better by February and March.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:37 pm
by ousdahl
Yeah for real.
I think Zach can and will be the big off the bench when we need it. ETA maybe Self saw his jumper and figured we could put Cam in the cupboard after all?
And while KJ looks like he’ll be a player, I dunno if it’s worth mentioning him as a viable 5 this season if we’re also gonna hesitate to do the same for Jalen.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:40 pm
by twocoach
TraditionKU wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:37 pm
i don’t think it’s a stretch to say that this team’s ceiling is Dave’s ceiling
him playing to his potential elevates this team more than Jalen playing to his potential does
This team doesn't need Dave to be great to play great. They have looked great many times this year with Dave looking like shit. The offense will get figured out with reps. There's just too much talent out there not to figure it out.
This team needs to learn to play better defense to reach their ceiling.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:43 pm
by twocoach
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:37 pm
Yeah for real.
I think Zach can and will be the big off the bench when we need it. ETA maybe Self saw his jumper and figured we could put Cam in the cupboard after all?
And while KJ looks like he’ll be a player, I dunno if it’s worth mentioning him as a viable 5 this season if we’re also gonna hesitate to do the same for Jalen.
KJ Adams will be a player. Two seasons from now.
Right now, he is a capable fill-in for spot minutes when we need an energy boost and probably won't be more than that outside of maybe less than a half dozen games with the ideal match up this season.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:43 pm
by Deleted User 89
twocoach wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:40 pm
TraditionKU wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:37 pm
i don’t think it’s a stretch to say that this team’s ceiling is Dave’s ceiling
him playing to his potential elevates this team more than Jalen playing to his potential does
This team doesn't need Dave to be great to play great. They have looked great many times this year with Dave looking like shit. The offense will get figured out with reps. There's just too much talent out there not to figure it out.
This team needs to learn to play better defense to reach their ceiling.
you’re absolutely right
but this team is better with Dave playing to his potential than if he isn’t, regardless of what anyone else does. we’ve got enough pieces at the 2-4 spots that Wilson not playing to his potential isn’t near the detriment to the team
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:50 pm
by PhDhawk
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:37 pm
Yeah for real.
I think Zach can and will be the big off the bench when we need it. ETA maybe Self saw his jumper and figured we could put Cam in the cupboard after all?
And while KJ looks like he’ll be a player, I dunno if it’s worth mentioning him as a viable 5 this season if we’re also gonna hesitate to do the same for Jalen.
I think there are certain matchups where either could be the five. Do you want to go mostly small or full small?
I think Adam's will also see minutes as a 4 when you want to go a little bigger. And we've seen him play alongside another big already this year.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:11 pm
by CrimsonNBlue
I’d rather get reps for Jalen at the 5 than go all the way down to Adams. I would imagine that Jalen is taller.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:19 pm
by PhDhawk
He looked good against Tarleton where he was a better matchup than clemence.
No reason to limit potential lineups.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:22 pm
by CrimsonNBlue
True. We’re going to play a lot of lineups this year.
Getting Jalen right is more important than developing Adams, though.
Re: 21-22 lineup
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:31 pm
by Deleted User 863
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:51 pm
How often did we throw the ball to Landen in the post?
Was it a “we have to do this for the first several possessions of every game” kinda thing?
Cuz I know the point of post feeds is to try and establish it to open things up for everybody else.
But sometimes, particularly with Dave (and then Mitch), it feels like it’s just this arbitrary thing we stubbornly try, even if Dave is doubled and the angles aren’t there, until we get something else going.
Could we approach it the other way around? Maybe come out with lots of guards moving in a PnR offense, and once the D is worried about checking the perimeter,
then start looking for the post feeds.
(Or just let post scoring come more from dishes and lobs as a result of guards moving the ball, rather than deliberately tossing it to a guy with his back to the basket while the guards just kinda stand around)
Lots of guards moving in a pick and roll offense to force the defense to check the perimeter and also have the option of post feeds? Have you designed this offense and sent it to Self to install? Becuase i don't feel like he's really a pick and roll coach, and especially not with this roster...and typically with a pick and roll offense it clogs the lane to also have a big down there to feed to in the post. So it just seems like magic messageboard offense you've created in your mind....