been trying to respond to this one, but it's so long. Lemme prune up all the quotes and stuff a little...
japhy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:56 am
I am trying to establish why you think Russia invaded Ukraine. In my opinion the Russian invasion is not justified, it is illegal, and it was unprovoked.
hey! we agree on something!
sort of...I guess the point of debate is that loaded word, "unprovoked." from my point of view, you seem determined to refuse to consider how any of Merica's own actions may have contributed to the situation. If you're gonna be so stubborn about that, and unwilling (or just unable?) to even consider as much, this thread just isn't gonna get anywhere.
Putin the best that I can tell gave 4 separate reasons why the invasion was justified and reasonable.
Concern over NATO's eastward expansion
yea. considering NATO is an alliance against the Soviet Union, and considering the Soviet Union hasn't been a thing for damn near 3 decades now, an objective observer might ask whether NATO is simply obsolete.
but, yes, considering, for the past 3 decades, NATO continued to expand hundreds of miles eastward (despite some potential controversy maybe it said it wouldn't), with perhaps the last big chip to fall in NATO's eastward expansion being Ukraine...at the very least, an objective observer might wonder if it rubbed Russia the wrong way. and again, not saying Russia is justified in invading Ukraine cuz of it! I'm just saying that's some context. And, if there was some Russian alliance that kept expanding right up to our doorstep, I don't think we'd just sit around twiddling our thumbs about it.
As noted above NATO was formed as a unified defensive alliance to resist Russian invasion of neighboring sovereign European countries. I do not believe Putin really thought NATO was going to invade Russia.
then why keep expanding right up to Russia's doorstep anyway?
Europe would have never built up such a dependence upon Russian energy if they just wanted to later destabilize Russian and put their economies at risk.
whoa! WHOA! maybe this thread IS getting somewhere!
I think you're onto something Japhy. If I were you I'd be asking, so now that Europe IS less dependent on Russian energy, who's selling more and more energy to Europe now? Hint: could it also be the folks egging on the escalation of conflict in Ukraine?
Putin baselessly claims Ukraine is committing genocide against ethnic Russians
Putin has also accused Ukraine of committing genocide and called its government a Nazi regime, claims for which there is no evidence.
Earlier this month, Putin claimed genocide was being committed against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, particularly in the Donbas region, where Kremlin-backed rebels have been fighting with Ukrainian forces since 2014.
On Monday, Putin recognized Donetsk and Luhansk, two separatist regions in the Donbas, as independent states and ordered Russian troops in for a "peacekeeping" operation, a move that was widely seen as a pretext for war.
Japhy, since you refuse to listen to me, I encourage you to do some reading of your own. Go to google, set the search parameters for anything before, say, 2021, and type "Ukraine humanitarian crisis" into the search bar.
I think we can just start and stop with Zelensky is Jewish.
that's like saying, the United States has solved all own racism problems because we elected Barack Obama.
Putin falsely says Ukraine isn't a real country
In a lengthy speech Monday, Putin claimed Ukraine wasn't a real country: "Ukraine has never had its own authentic statehood. There has never been a sustainable statehood in Ukraine."
He argued Ukraine was created by the Soviet Union under its first leader, Vladimir Lenin, despite overwhelming evidence of Ukrainian culture and history that predates the Soviet Union. Putin also insisted that Ukraine is part of Russia.
"Let me emphasize once again that Ukraine for us is not just a neighboring country. It is an integral part of our own history, culture, spiritual space," he said.
Putin has also incorrectly stated that Russia gave Ukraine the right to break away, when in fact, the Ukrainian people voted overwhelmingly for independence in a 1991 referendum, The Washington Post reported. For the referendum vote, 84% of eligible voters went to the polls, and more than 90% voted in favor of independence.
and yet, Imma go out on a limb and posit, Ukraine still has more in common with Russia than they do with the United States.
We can start and stop with, if Ukraine isn't a separate country, why are they fighting and dying for their sovereignty?
I know you want this discussion to "start and stop," so it can fit neatly into your cute little world views. But, at least try to realize, there may be more to it than that.
but if you're sincerely asking, Ukraine is little more than cannon fodder here. The United States cares about the Ukrainian people about as much as they care about the people of Flint, MI, or Jackson, MS, or East Palestine, OH. That's to say, they don't care. Indeed, when a gummint primarily serves the interests of capital, then it fight wars on behalf of capital too. Let's put the "freedom and democracy" narrative on the back burner, and consider that maybe this war is less about that and more about global markets and such.
Dubious concerns over nuclear weapons
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine voluntarily gave up the nuclear weapons in its territory in exchange for a guarantee of security by the US, the UK, and Russia.
Putin, however, has expressed concern that Ukraine has the knowledge and desire to obtain nuclear weapons, thus posing a threat to Moscow. While there is no evidence that Ukraine is trying to acquire nuclear weapons, The New York Times reported that Putin had spewed conspiracy theories to talk up the threat and use it to justify an invasion.
"If Ukraine acquires weapons of mass destruction, the situation in the world and in Europe will drastically change, especially for us, for Russia," Putin said Tuesday. "We cannot but react to this real danger, all the more so since, let me repeat, Ukraine's Western patrons may help it acquire these weapons to create yet another threat to our country."
US officials and NATO have repeatedly said there are no plans to arm Ukraine with nuclear weapons.
ohhhh....so now this thread just went full "WMDs in Ukraine," too!
Coo to recap. All of Putin's reasons/provocations are bullshit. They are propaganda he created to justify his desires to rebuild Soviet Russia into the superpower it once was.
yea. I've said that Putin's reasons are bullshit all along. But just because Putin's reasons are bullshit, doesn't mean we should bury our heads int he sand about actually trying to understand the situation in the bigger picture.
Can you see how discussion of those 4 subjects can be construed as giving legitimacy to Russian propaganda?
yea, especially if one had been conditioned to reject legitimate criticism for our own actions as just more bad guy propaganda.
And America bad too....it is the definition of "whataboutism". It is tacit justification for Putin's bad deeds, because, but America bad too.
speaking of rejecting legitimate criticism as just more bad guy propaganda...can you even tell a difference between "whataobutism" and "this is shit we really did do that really did materially contribute to the current situation at hand?"
So to ease your frustration, and because I AM REALLY just here to help, not like some other socks, I started threads to discuss these topics which you seem very passionate about so that your intent in discussing Russia's invasion of sovereign Ukraine is not mistaken for Russian propaganda or whataboutism.
This will clear up some of the clusterfuck nature of this thread and we can now discuss the Russian invasion of Ukraine in rational terms.
yea, Russian propaganda is definitely out there. I've made a point to be very cognizant of as much.
But here's the big difference between you and me: I HAVE made a point to be very cognizant of as much! Including - and here's the big big difference - the western propaganda too!
in contrast, you seem all too quick to knee-jerk deride anything that doesn't fit your feel-good narrow world views as Russian propaganda - just like the western propaganda has conditioned you to do! All while also being totally unaware that you you sound completely, totally, hammered ass, stumbling around, piss-yer-pants drunk, off the western propaganda yourself.
if you're anything less than cognizant of that much, it kinda just sounds like you really are trying to double down on finding WMDs in Iraq.
...phew! What a fucking essay! Now, don't anyone try to tell me ever again that I ignore your guys's posts.