Kansas Crimson

Mjl wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:18 am Heading to Jerusalem right now, after four Americans and three Israelis were shot by terrorists there last night right near where we are heading. Way more soldiers with guns on the train today than usual - which is almost comforting? I am understanding better how terrorist attacks help the right wing here.

Good thing you weren't near there yesterday. I hope you enjoy Jerusalem. Heck of a place to see/visit.
Try to ignore the touristy and commercialized aspects.
Most offensive thing I encountered were the scumbags who hustle people for money at "The Wall" by telling people they will say a prayer for them. I had a security guy with me and he had to literally push them away.

For reference to what Mjl is/was referring to.......

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... g-88348757

Israeli army says a soldier likely killed a Palestinian-American journalist

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/05/11211195 ... journalist

Another reason that peace talks need to resume. Because as long as terrorist attacks continue, Israel will keep engaging terrorists, and innocent people will get caught in the crossfire.

Btw, Israel is the only nation in the region that would have a full investigation of something like this and conclude they are likely at fault.

Good for them for admitting they're likely at fault, but it also feels kinda hollow considering there will be no consequences.

and yet, man, what would the fallout be if Syria or Iran or one of those other nation's forces shot an American journalist?

Israel may also be the only nation in the region that gets billions a year worth of guns and bombs and various other blank checks footed by you and me.

The reports also do nothing to "explain why witness accounts and videos showed limited militant activity in the area, as well as no gunfire in the vicinity until the barrage that struck Abu Akleh and wounded another reporter."

The reports repeat the official accounts it was an accident, mistake, misidentification, etc., even though the journalist was dressed like this:



so perhaps the question is:

who exactly are the terrorists here?

Answer to your question is... "Here", the Israeli that shot her - if it was intentional.
Intentional or not, the Israeli soldier fucked up.
If it was accidental, not sure what if any consequences the shooter should face.
If it was intentional, he/she should suffer some consequence - but seemingly won't.

An eerie side note, she looks A LOT like my friend's Israeli mother when she was Akleh's age.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:05 pm Good for them for admitting they're likely at fault, but it also feels kinda hollow considering there will be no consequences.

and yet, man, what would the fallout be if Syria or Iran or one of those other nation's forces shot an American journalist?

Israel may also be the only nation in the region that gets billions a year worth of guns and bombs and various other blank checks footed by you and me.

The reports also do nothing to "explain why witness accounts and videos showed limited militant activity in the area, as well as no gunfire in the vicinity until the barrage that struck Abu Akleh and wounded another reporter."

The reports repeat the official accounts it was an accident, mistake, misidentification, etc., even though the journalist was dressed like this:



so perhaps the question is:

who exactly are the terrorists here?

Saudi Arabia intentionally murdered and tortured an American reporter. No consequences.

Oh yeah.

Damn.

A bunch of Saudis blew up a bunch of buildings in our country too, and the only consequence of that was we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq instead.

But at least you and I don’t pay for bombs to give to Saudi Arabia tho, right?

Rather, they pay us.

And by us I mean, Jared Kushner.

Global politics is fucked.

Kushner was the best thing to come from the Trump years. Biased opinion since "Israel existing" is one of the most important issues for me.

But the Abraham Accords brought some very meaningful peace agreements to the middle east.

At the end of the day, those types of agreements are the best hope for getting peace, and fewer deaths like Akleh. Because peace isn't coming, given what happened last time Israel gave land to the Palestinians, until someone can ensure Israel's safety. The UN said they would do it in Gaza and didn't. Other Arab countries are the best hope.

What happened last time Israel fave land to the Palestinians?

Doesn’t Israel mostly take land from the Palestinians?

Mjl wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:14 pm Kushner was the best thing to come from the Trump years. Biased opinion since "Israel existing" is one of the most important issues for me.

Notwithstanding your concession that your opinion is biased, I think the word you’re looking for is “appeasement” as in ‘hey Saudi Arabia we’re good with all your atrocities as long as you admit Israel has a right to exist’.

Last time was Gaza. Israel made all their citizens leave. In response, rocket fire actually increased. Then Hamas came and killed (literally) the PLO/PA leadership there and took over. That's why Egypt (who somehow never gets criticism here) and Israel blockade them.

No, Israel has never taken land, in the current context, from the Palestinians. I mean, if the Palestinians (which is not what they were called at the time), who never had their own country, accepted the UN plan in 1947, that'd be one thing. But they rejected it and tried to wipe out the Jews in "Palestina EY" instead. So it was never their land because they never agreed to it, unlike Israel.

The West Bank and East Jerusalem were part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt from 1949-1967. Those countries did not give the Palestinians their own state.

In 1967 when the cease fire (not peace) was signed, Israel had control of the West Bank from Jordan, and Gaza and Sinai from Egypt. Eventually they gave back Sinai to Egypt in return for peace. They destroyed all the Israeli settler homes their and made them leave. In return, they had peace with Egypt, and it has held ever since. Egypt didn't want Gaza back. Israel later signed peace with Jordan - who had no desire to take back the West Bank as part of that deal.

This is why, when we were young, if you saw a map of Israel, it would have included the West Bank and Gaza. Israel worked with the PLO (now PA) to transfer the most populated areas of the West Bank to the Palestinians. Those are the areas now known as Area A and Area B, which have PA control (and which Jews are not even allowed in because they wouldn't be safe).

Israel pulled out of Gaza, and it was a disaster. This, amongst several other reasons (mostly the non-adherence to peace agreements by both sides) led to Israel halting the pull-out of the West Bank, so the least-populated part (Area C) and East Jerusalem are still Israeli controlled. That's where the settlements are. They were never a part of a Palestinian nation. I, and most Israelis, would like to see Israel eventually pull out of there.

tl;dr - no, Israel hasn't been taking land, it has been giving it up for peace.

zsn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:08 pm

Mjl wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:14 pm Kushner was the best thing to come from the Trump years. Biased opinion since "Israel existing" is one of the most important issues for me.

Notwithstanding your concession that your opinion is biased, I think the word you’re looking for is “appeasement” as in ‘hey Saudi Arabia we’re good with all your atrocities as long as you admit Israel has a right to exist’.

I mean, yeah, guilty. I can deal with a murdered Khashoggi, amongst other things that occur when you have a monarchy, if Saudi Arabia can help Israel to not be constantly threatened by terrorists and help give Palestinians freedom. It could prevent a lot of death and suffering, net.

And it's not just Saudi Arabia. Israel went from being on an island in the Middle East to having good relations with a couple wealthy countries, namely UAE and Bahrain. I didn't think much of that until I was there and saw how that's the big push - improving relations with their neighbors.

With all that said, Netanyahu has done a ton of damage to the peace process the last dozen or so years. The incentives in 2012 for people to move to settlements in Area C, for example, was just antagonistic, and other than the Abraham Accords it didn't seem like advancing peace with the Palestinians was something he was willing to do.

Which is Israeli politics. Likud party didn't have a big enough coalition because peace is popular. So he made a deal with the Haredi (ultra-orthodox Jews) minority who want the West Bank because they think God gave it to them. Israel is definitely not without blame here. But Lapid may be changing things around.

Likud and Netanyahu are back in power. Also an even further right-wing party managed to get several seats in Parliament.

Bloody hell, this could be really bad for all sides. Arab Israelis could have prevented it if they turned up to vote in greater numbers, but so many abstain as a protest (despite anti-Zionist Arabs always winning some seats as well)

JERUSALEM — Benjamin Netanyahu's incoming hard-line Israeli government put West Bank settlement expansion at the top of its priority list on Wednesday, vowing to legalize dozens of illegally built outposts and annex the occupied territory as part of its coalition deal with ultranationalist allies.

The coalition agreements, released a day before the government is to be sworn into office, also included language endorsing discrimination against LGBTQ people on religious grounds, contentious judicial reforms, as well as generous stipends for ultra-Orthodox men who prefer to study instead of work.

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/29/11459526 ... on-a-prior

how russia of them

Yea, I was gonna say.

Although Israel and Russia are both apparently in the illegally occupying territory bidness, a couple big differences are that in Israel’s case, they’re the ones receiving bajillions worth of Merican weapons, and also it’s not like there’s some big #StandWithPalestine campaign flooding western media either.

Either way, that entire article is wild.

One example of why the US supports Israel - it's the only country in the Middle East where this can happen and the people don't need to fear being arrested or killed for it.

This thread makes me sad.