Kansas Crimson

Why Trump Is Overruling Scientists to Pursue His Pet Coronavirus Drug

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04 ... quine.html

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:18 am

Vega wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:40 am Reposts =/= endorsements.

TRUMP SHOULD BE TRIED FOR 'CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY' OVER HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE REMARKS, SAYS OHIO STATE REP.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-crimes-a ... ki-1496280

Why not just impeach him?

That would require approximately 20 Senators growing a conscience.

Or, would require McConnell to perceive the GOP majority to be in jeopardy.

Vega wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:34 am Why Trump Is Overruling Scientists to Pursue His Pet Coronavirus Drug

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04 ... quine.html

I think it's certainly true that a large part of the animus here is the Fox News quacks.

I also think there's an element of denial; Trump cannot wrap his head around the math and science of how all of this works, and is desperate to believe there's a scenario here that isn't as bad as the math and science says it's likely to be.

Feral wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:25 am Nearly half the supply of hydroxychloroquine to the U.S. comes from makers in India, a flow that has now been abruptly stanched after the Asian nation banned exports of all forms of the malaria drug touted by President Donald Trump as a “game changer” for treating the coronavirus.

According to data compiled by Bloomberg Intelligence, 47% of the U.S. supply of the drug last year came from India makers. Only a handful of suppliers in the top 10 are non-Indian, such as Actavis, now a subsidiary of Israeli generics giant Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd. It’s likely that some of their production facilities are nevertheless located in India, the biggest maker of generic drugs in the world.

India’s export ban on the drug is aimed at ensuring it has enough supply for domestic use after the American president’s endorsement sparked global stockpiling of the medication. As the coronavirus pandemic widens globally, countries competing for supplies have enacted export bans or restrictions on goods from rice in Vietnam to face masks in Germany.

[...]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/li ... s-n1166981

Clinical tests are only just beginning, and infectious disease experts say it's too soon to reach a conclusion. Still, the publicity surrounding hydroxychloroquine, which began well before Trump's remarks, has fueled shortages across the country, NBC News found.

"We were starting to see some reports of supply problems earlier as hospitals started purchasing to have on hand for possible inpatient treatment / clinical trials, however Thursday’s announcement and continuing remarks are driving people to start hoarding this product," said Erin Fox, senior director of drug information at University of Utah Health, whose research on medication shortages is used by the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists.

Also...

https://in.reuters.com/article/health-c ... NKBN21C2IZ

MARCH 25, 2020 / 10:31 AM / 12 DAYS AGO
India bans export of key malaria drug amid coronavirus outbreak


Trump is bad. Hydroxychloroquine shortages are bad. Therefore Trump is a hydroxychloroquine.

Vega wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:34 am Why Trump Is Overruling Scientists to Pursue His Pet Coronavirus Drug

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04 ... quine.html

More bs, comparing Trump to Lysenko.

I too saw that at the time, DC. What in the world do you think physicians are talking about on our web sites and message boards?

But, if it's important to you to try to normalize the repeated, mind-numbing rantings of medical "advice" by Dr. Trump, a pathological liar whose unbridled malignant narcissism has shown us time and time again that he puts his own interests above those of both our nation and Americans, then by all means, you be you.

Meanwhile, baby steps:

Dr. Oz getting in on this shit too?

Trump's fervor for an unproven COVID-19 drug is reportedly fueled by Rudy Giuliani, Dr. Oz

https://theweek.com/speedreads/907062/t ... iani-dr-oz

Why get your bowels in an uproar? Trump doesn’t write prescriptions. So relax.

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:46 am Why get your bowels in an uproar? Trump doesn’t write prescriptions. So relax.

Because Trump is evil and must be blamed for everything, silly.

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:17 am

Feral wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:10 am The US is nearing 10,000 deaths.

Only 10,000?
The CDC has the number of deaths from the most recent flu virus as 24,000-63,000.

Ok then......<4000 people died on 9-11-2001. Why do we bother with the TSA then. In fact no one died from a guy hiding a bomb in his shoe...........

This is a pretty short, and easy to read article about the history of chloroquine. It was written by a guy from Novartis, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt, but I think it's worth reading.

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/a ... nd-present

The author's conclusion is similar to what I think, which is, that there seems to be some, albeit conflicting evidence, that chloroquine may have some positive results as part of a treatment for CoVid-19 and that the trials using it should be ramped up, that production should be ramped up in case there is a benefit. (he mentions that two generic pharmaceuticals are doing so). But that it's too early to use this as a widespread treatment and that it shouldn't be used as a prophylactic against coronavirus as there's no evidence to suggest it has that benefit. It's on these last two points where I think Trump gets it wrong. This is a drug, it has negative side effects especially in high doses or when taken for prolonged periods of time. (I believe this was written prior to Trump's touting it as a wonderdrug) I also wish Trump was more honest about the results...at best they're promising, but may in fact not be real at all.

However, unlike some here, I do think it's something worth talking about. It has long been known to have antiviral capabilities https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub , primarily it raises the pH of lysosomes which can prevent viral spread from cell to cell https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5461643/ and it is a Zn ionophore, which means it bings Zn so that it can't be used by the RNA polymerase which inhibits viral replication, this was shown to be true specifically in Coronaviruses in 2010. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2973827/

I actually think its important that all treatments be explored. I also think it's reasonable to talk about it. I'm not worried that children will start taking prescription drugs because they're talked about in a press conference like some on here are. Access to prescription drugs seems like a different conversation to me.

I do disagree with Trump when he endorses healthy people taking it prophylactically, he mentioned that EMTs and health workers were doing this. I think that's a bad idea, as I've seen no evidence that it would work (although it's possible I've missed it). I have seen two studies showing use of hydroxychloroquine to treat CoVid19 - one showed no benefit, the other showed modest benefit (again there are probably more, I'm just talking about what I've personally seen) Additionally, the Chinese, Korean, and Italians have all also used it, in addition to the FDA authorizing if for emergency use. I don't like him saying, "take it why not?" or just willy nilly suggesting it be prescribed. However, in situations where patients do not likely have a positive outcome or are really suffering, I think doctors should try to use different off-label treatments including hydroxychloroquine and others.

Vega wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:38 am Dr. Oz getting in on this shit too?

Trump's fervor for an unproven COVID-19 drug is reportedly fueled by Rudy Giuliani, Dr. Oz

https://theweek.com/speedreads/907062/t ... iani-dr-oz

The green coffee extract huckster?

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:01 pm This is a pretty short, and easy to read article about the history of chloroquine. It was written by a guy from Novartis, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt, but I think it's worth reading.

Derek Lowe is a very objective writer and I have followed his blogs for several years. He and I are of similar vintage and training (organic chemistry PhD). He works on the discovery end and I am responsible for turning the compounds he has discovered into drugs. He has a great way of writing and conveying complex concepts in a simple way. So, I don't see any salt-worthy statements.

The current situation reminds me of something my late post-doc advisor used to say, in the context of "natural medicine" claims of efficacy in various diseases and their treatment and prevention, particularly when it came to anti-oxidants (he was one of the pioneers in the area of free-radical organic chemistry and considered a "World Authority" in this area). He used to say "99% of all these claims are utter garbage but no one knows which 99%". This is the reason why people like Derek Lowe and I have a job.

A. Fuck.



B. Yay?

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... ssion=true

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:27 pm A. Fuck.



B. Yay?

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... ssion=true

Get this bloke some fish cleaning solution.

zsn wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:14 pm

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:01 pm This is a pretty short, and easy to read article about the history of chloroquine. It was written by a guy from Novartis, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt, but I think it's worth reading.

Derek Lowe is a very objective writer and I have followed his blogs for several years. He and I are of similar vintage and training (organic chemistry PhD). He works on the discovery end and I am responsible for turning the compounds he has discovered into drugs. He has a great way of writing and conveying complex concepts in a simple way. So, I don't see any salt-worthy statements.

The current situation reminds me of something my late post-doc advisor used to say, in the context of "natural medicine" claims of efficacy in various diseases and their treatment and prevention, particularly when it came to anti-oxidants (he was one of the pioneers in the area of free-radical organic chemistry and considered a "World Authority" in this area). He used to say "99% of all these claims are utter garbage but no one knows which 99%". This is the reason why people like Derek Lowe and I have a job.

That was a good read PhD, thanks for sharing it. I don't think I disagree with anything Lowe said. I heartily agree that chloroquine should be rushed into trials ASAP, and with Lowe's statement:

"...in situations where patients do not likely have a positive outcome or are really suffering, I think doctors should try to use different off-label treatments including hydroxychloroquine and others."

zsn, I like the quote you shared by your advisor about "natural medicine".

My fallback quotes for when it seems like every other patient &/or relative &/or friend inevitably eventually asks what I think about "supplements" are:

1. The one thing supplements are guaranteed to give you is expensive urine."

and, if they go on and on about it or happen to say something to the effect that it must be good, because it's "natural":

2. Hemlock is natural, but it killed Socrates."

I'm good with it so long as it doesn't jeopardize the drug's availability for existing prescribees.

This guy is obviously either a quack or a Trump shill, right?

https://abc7.com/coronavirus-drug-covid ... e/6079864/

“Dr. Anthony Cardillo said he has seen very promising results when prescribing hydroxychloroquine in combination with zinc for the most severely-ill COVID-19 patients.

"Every patient I've prescribed it to has been very, very ill and within 8 to 12 hours, they were basically symptom-free," Cardillo told Eyewitness News. "So clinically I am seeing a resolution."

Cardillo is the CEO of Mend Urgent Care, which has locations in Sherman Oaks, Van Nuys and Burbank.

He said he has found it only works if combined with zinc. The drug, he said, opens a channel for the zinc to enter the cell and block virus replication.”

I also read elsewhere that Governor Cuomo was asking for more of this useless crap that is apparently turning the tide in NYC. Excuse the source, but it quotes him directly: https://trendingpolitics.com/breaking-c ... g-results/

Let us be honest, Trump is not hyping hydroxychloroquine because he thinks it works, he no longer has the mental faculties to make those kinds of projections. If he ever did.

Like all narcissists, Trump knows that he needs a scapegoat, an excuse and he's setting up a lack of embrace of hydroxychloroquine as his scapegoat when this all looks really bad during April.