Kansas Crimson

Yeah, I too am concerned the political dialogue has become less about healthy debate and more about vilifying the other side, sadly.

But credit libs with at least trying to advance a platform.

And I suppose while both sides incorporate fear in a sense, I also think the “we need to curb climate change” sort of lib boogeymanning is substantially different than the “immigrants is comin to take yall’s jobs” sort of maga shit.

nobody wants to listen to policy...it’s boring

why do think Warren did so poorly?

Cuz she’s one of those uppity intellectual types, duh.

Heaven forbid an American political candidate actually know what she’s talking about.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:03 pm Yeah, I too am concerned the political dialogue has become less about healthy debate and more about vilifying the other side, sadly.

But credit libs with at least trying to advance a platform.

And I suppose while both sides incorporate fear in a sense, I also think the “we need to curb climate change” sort of lib boogeymanning is substantially different than the “immigrants is comin to take yall’s jobs” sort of maga shit.

We don't need to give them credit for doing what is the most basic thing they should do.

And you can't just cherry pick shit to make the libs look good. I mean, you can, that's basically all you do, but that is meaningless. But utterly predictable. I do think the maga fear mongering has been taken to the absolute extreme to the point of being silly, but as is so often the case, that's a Trump thing.

I think in almost all these conversations Trump and his disciples, transcend any sort of actual political argument. There's really no comparison. MAGA is a caricature of an actual political party.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:13 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:03 pm Yeah, I too am concerned the political dialogue has become less about healthy debate and more about vilifying the other side, sadly.

But credit libs with at least trying to advance a platform.

And I suppose while both sides incorporate fear in a sense, I also think the “we need to curb climate change” sort of lib boogeymanning is substantially different than the “immigrants is comin to take yall’s jobs” sort of maga shit.

We don't need to give them credit for doing what is the most basic thing they should do.

And you can't just cherry pick shit to make the libs look good. I mean, you can, that's basically all you do, but that is meaningless. But utterly predictable. I do think the maga fear mongering has been taken to the absolute extreme to the point of being silly, but as is so often the case, that's a Trump thing.

I think in almost all these conversations Trump and his disciples, transcend any sort of actual political argument. There's really no comparison. MAGA is a caricature of an actual political party.

so if Ousie is cherry-picking, why don’t you provide “more reasonable” examples?

every time this comes up on here, nobody can seem to provide anything close to being in the same ballpark to what the right has and is doing...be it extremists or fear-mongering

what is the equal but opposite example?

I don’t mean to cherry pick.

Could you provide examples of how you think liberal both sidesing is bad, and as extreme as the magas?

Trad beat me to it

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:21 pm

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:13 pm

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:03 pm Yeah, I too am concerned the political dialogue has become less about healthy debate and more about vilifying the other side, sadly.

But credit libs with at least trying to advance a platform.

And I suppose while both sides incorporate fear in a sense, I also think the “we need to curb climate change” sort of lib boogeymanning is substantially different than the “immigrants is comin to take yall’s jobs” sort of maga shit.

We don't need to give them credit for doing what is the most basic thing they should do.

And you can't just cherry pick shit to make the libs look good. I mean, you can, that's basically all you do, but that is meaningless. But utterly predictable. I do think the maga fear mongering has been taken to the absolute extreme to the point of being silly, but as is so often the case, that's a Trump thing.

I think in almost all these conversations Trump and his disciples, transcend any sort of actual political argument. There's really no comparison. MAGA is a caricature of an actual political party.

so if Ousie is cherry-picking, why don’t you provide “more reasonable” examples?

every time this comes up on here, nobody can seem to provide anything close to being in the same ballpark to what the right has and is doing...be it extremists or fear-mongering

what is the equal but opposite example?

Ok,

I think any reasonable person would agree that 7.25 minimum wage that hasn't been raised in more than a decade is too low.

Biden wants to raise it to $15.

When republicans disagree, and suggest a more modest increase citing that there are industries, businesses, and areas of the country that would be negatively impacted by a hike that big. Instead of debating or coming to a compromise, or talking about exemptions or citing research, the person is accused of hating the poor, wanting to keep people oppressed, and because of the demographics of who is paid minimum wage, they're often accused of being racist or sexist.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:21 pm I don’t mean to cherry pick.

Could you provide examples of how you think liberal both sidesing is bad, and as extreme as the magas?

I'll do another one.

I don't think a republican can make an argument for tough enforcement of any immigration laws without being immediately called a racist and xenophobic without ever looking at the merits.

I know, I know...you and Trad would never do such a thing, but I see it online all the time.

Re: wages, Some small businesses def may be upon tough times if they have to double their worker’s wages.

But then again, any business or industry that relies on paying workers the absolute minumum they can legally pay as a fundamental element of their business model, isn’t exactly a sustainable business model either way.

And there’s also the argument that putting more money into the pockets of consumers will have grander positive effect on the economy.

you do have a good point about citing research as part of the debate - but guess which side of the aisle fucking despises that kind of fancy pantsing?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:36 pm Re: wages, Some small businesses def may be upon tough times if they have to double their worker’s wages.

But then again, any business or industry that relies on paying workers the absolute minumum they can legally pay as a fundamental element of their business model, isn’t exactly a sustainable business model either way.

And there’s also the argument that putting more money into the pockets of consumers will have grander positive effect on the economy.

you do have a good point about citing research as part of the debate - but guess which side of the aisle fucking despises that kind of fancy pantsing?

Well, I didn't post about it to debate about it. More to point out that the other side (regardless of which side it is) gets attacked without ever really listening, and it's usually by ad hominem or emotional appeals. And as far as what side of the aisle despises research, it pretty much depends on whose argument it supports. Keep in mind that topics like being anti-vaxx don't fall on political party lines.

But these are complex issues. Some businesses operate with narrower margins than others. While I agree with your first sentiment and it totally applies to Wells Fargo, or Amazon, I don't think you can say that about every business everywhere. What if you were retired, owned some land near a lake, and in your spare time you opened a little ice cream parlor...you don't make any money off it, but do it for fun. You always hire some local high school students to work there for $8 an hour but at $15 an hour you'll have to close down, how is that a good thing. Maybe there should be a $15/hour minimum wage, but maybe there needs to be exemptions. Suggesting so, doesn't mean you want to oppress people.

Here's a better more real life example. I work at a University. We have a fixed budget in our department to hire student employees. If the minimum wage doubles, we can employ fewer students. Now, maybe you'd argue that it's better to have 10 students making $15/hour than 20 students making $8/hour...but that's at least a conversation that should be had.

Also, no one seems to be talking about how this would disproportionally impact different cities and states. If you live in Boston, or LA, or NYC, you'd still be living below the poverty line at $15/hour which is probably about where the minimum wage currently is, and might not be enough of an increase. If you're living in rural Mississippi, it might really have a negative impact on businesses and might actually reduce the number of jobs moreseo than in the suburbs of a larger city.

I want to raise the minimum wage. But maybe listening to the arguments against it, instead of dismissing them out of hand as someoene who's been brainwashed by the man, gets you to an even better plan for increasing the minimum wage than what you first proposed.

My gosh is this easy to say (and hard to address), but: the issue is that everything is connected. Increasing the minimum wage is a blunt instrument to impose the supposed benefits of trickle-down economics (needed, because it is clear those benefits will never simply materialize).

I'd argue it's not the best tool to address the root issue, which is income/wealth disparity.

But absent a comprehensive revisiting of how we tax income and wealth, and how we spend and distribute the taxes that are collected, it's arguably a necessary tool.

Good shit you guys!

But man we’re off topic lol

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:03 pm My gosh is this easy to say (and hard to address), but: the issue is that everything is connected. Increasing the minimum wage is a blunt instrument to impose the supposed benefits of trickle-down economics (needed, because it is clear those benefits will never simply materialize).

I'd argue it's not the best tool to address the root issue, which is income/wealth disparity.

But absent a comprehensive revisiting of how we tax income and wealth, and how we spend and distribute the taxes that are collected, it's arguably a necessary tool.

this is what i was going to say

perhaps it’s the wrong instrument for the job, but those who oppose it have yet to offer their own mechanism for addressing the issue...or at least i haven’t seen it

is that because they don’t want to address and remedy the issue?

Can you be anti- big business AND want to raise the minimum wage to 15? Guess who is most likely to survive and increase market share with that scenario?

for the record, i oppose the nation-wide hike, particularly because there is such a disparity in the cost of living across this country

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:38 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:03 pm My gosh is this easy to say (and hard to address), but: the issue is that everything is connected. Increasing the minimum wage is a blunt instrument to impose the supposed benefits of trickle-down economics (needed, because it is clear those benefits will never simply materialize).

I'd argue it's not the best tool to address the root issue, which is income/wealth disparity.

But absent a comprehensive revisiting of how we tax income and wealth, and how we spend and distribute the taxes that are collected, it's arguably a necessary tool.

this is what i was going to say

perhaps it’s the wrong instrument for the job, but those who oppose it have yet to offer their own mechanism for addressing the issue...or at least i haven’t seen it

is that because they don’t want to address and remedy the issue?

Probably?

Certainly an alternative to raising the minimum wage would be dialing back a lot of anti-labor, anti-unionization laws. It stands to reason that if workers can organize, they will be in a better position to negotiate for more favorable pay scales.

But of course that's probably even less desirable to businesses than an increased minimum wage.

TDub wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:45 pm Can you be anti- big business AND want to raise the minimum wage to 15? Guess who is most likely to survive and increase market share with that scenario?

This may be so.

But it also may be so that increased payroll costs could be managed with increased product prices.

for instance, with PhD’s ice cream shop example - raise the price of an ice cream cone by a buck or two, and the market should be able to bear it, since the increased wages put more money in the wallets of consumers?

Aren't there countries that regulate wages within a company, so that the highest paid executive can only make a certain amount more than the lowest paid or median salary.

You could make it so that the executive can only make 50X more than the lowest paid employee. I mean, if you think you're CEO is worth $2 million a year, surely your entry level employees are worth $40K.

I don't feel like the local florist who made $36K last year is exploiting anyone if she hires help at $8/hour, but man I DO have a problem with Wal-Mart having employees making minimum, or worse hiring them to work 30 hours so they don't have to pay benefits. And I don't know how to rectify those two things.

A smaller price increase over a large quantity is more manageable than a small increase at mom and pops.

The big business will benefit...again.