Kansas Crimson

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:39 am Thomas had one elite season.
Vonte had one elite season, one very good season, one good season and one season like TRob's other 2 seasons.
He started 3 out of the 4 years he was there on some loaded teams.

To me, that means a lot.

I'm hanging a banner for what you did in your time, your entire time, as a Jayhawk.

As I've said, I would absolutely have Devonte above my own cut-line. But I think they both pass the "career" line, wherever that is, and I do think Thomas' best season was slightly better than Devonte's. So, for me, I would have Thomas slightly ahead of Devonte.

But probably both in the same Bill-era tier (with Ochai and Sherron (and maybe others), below Frank, who I'd have in a tier to himself).

"I don't care, as between Thomas and Devonte, about career totals."

Why?

I can't have Frank in a tier to himself without ever making a final 4.

I have him at the top of the list though.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:50 am "I don't care, as between Thomas and Devonte, about career totals."

Why?

Not trying to open up an old/different fight, but in my view I would not effectively penalize a guy - once he's passed that "long-timer" line - for leaving eligibility on the table.

Just my view. I recognize that yours is different, and reasonable/logical/supportable.

Meh.
That's not penalizing.
That's just asking, were you here playing basketball for Kansas?

We shouldn't be assuming hypotheticals otherwise Wiggins would have an entire wing along with a hung jersey in AFH.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:56 am I can't have Frank in a tier to himself without ever making a final 4.

I have him at the top of the list though.

Unfortunately, unlike TRob, Frank didn't get to play the 10 seed, 11 seed and 1 seed minus their star point guard to make it there.

Instead he ran into eventual winner Nova and the officials in 2016.
And, big mark against Vonte's junior season here, 0-7 Vonte and 1-5 Vick and Oregon, who lost by 1 to the National Champion.

Frank beating the Germans is one of my favorite games. Wearing the flag proudly

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:05 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:56 am I can't have Frank in a tier to himself without ever making a final 4.

I have him at the top of the list though.

Unfortunately, unlike TRob, Frank didn't get to play the 10 seed, 11 seed and 1 seed minus their star point guard to make it there.

Instead he ran into eventual winner Nova and the officials in 2016.
And, big mark against Vonte's junior season here, 0-7 Vonte and 1-5 Vick and Oregon, who lost by 1 to the National Champion.

That's the breaks of the NCAA tournament. Och gets a big boost from that team's run and they also had a favorable run to the title.

For sure.
For me, it diminishes the tournament results a bit - probably similar to why you think the B12 title, with it's new structure, has been diminished.
It helps to have great matchups.

Its why, when we ranked these, NCAA champion wasn't super high ( and was actually a lot lower for many posters ) on my individual award list:

viewtopic.php?p=185741#p185741

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 12:04 pm Meh.
That's not penalizing.
That's just asking, were you here playing basketball for Kansas?

We shouldn't be assuming hypotheticals otherwise Wiggins would have an entire wing along with a hung jersey in AFH.

As I have said, there is a line somewhere. To be clear, by the present, stated standards, a one-year guy can go up. So he should go up, if he meets those standards.

But I think we're talking about something different here - something MORE exclusive than the present, stated standards.

Whatever my highest tier of KU Basketball Valhalla is - that thing that I said Chalmers is below the cut-line for - I will not categorically say that a one-year guy CANNOT get there. But nothing any one-year guy has done yet would come close to getting there.

Of note, here is that kcrim25 list ( before voting so 50 + 2 new players ) without any voting added on ( just based on total rank which combines crimscore, total career stats and awards ) with Ochai and Jalen added in:

1 DANNY MANNING
2 WILT CHAMBERLAIN
3 CLYDE LOVELLETTE
4 NICK COLLISON
5 RAEF LAFRENTZ
6 FRANK MASON
7 DREW GOODEN
8 PAUL PIERCE
9 DAVE ROBISCH
10 DARNELL VALENTINE
11 BUD STALLWORTH
12 JO JO WHITE
13 WAYNE SIMIEN
14 SHERRON COLLINS
15 DEVONTE GRAHAM
16 KIRK HINRICH
17 PAUL ENDACOTT
18 CHARLIE T BLACK
19 WALT WESLEY
20 MARIO CHALMERS
21 JACQUE VAUGHN
22 UDOKA AZUBUIKE
23 BRANDON RUSH
24 MARCUS MORRIS
25 WAYNE HIGHTOWER
26 THOMAS ROBINSON
27 PERRY ELLIS*
28 OCHAI AGBAJI
29 COLE ALDRICH*
30 JALEN WILSON
31 BILL BRIDGES
32 KEVIN PRITCHARD
33 BH BORN
34 KEITH LANGFORD
35 CHARLIE B BLACK
36 AARON MILES
37 DEVON DOTSON
38 REX WALTERS
39 MARK RANDALL
40 ANDREW WIGGINS
41 BEN MCLEMORE
42 TYSHAWN TAYLOR
43 JOSH JACKSON
44 JEFF WITHEY
45 CEDRIC HUNTER
46 RUSSELL ROBINSON
47 GREG OSTERTAG
48 JEROD HAASE
49 KENNY GREGORY
50 SCOT POLLARD
51 JEFF BOSCHEE
52 ERIC CHENOWITH

* edited - these were switched and now correct

I might imagine that a revote would get Ochai into the top 25.

TRob did NOT make that top 25 in the vote + score - actually finishing 27th behind Perry Ellis.
TRob finished 26th in the vote, also behind 25th Perry Ellis.
Vonte finished 16th in the vote.

RussRob, due to a couple top 10 votes, finished 32nd in vote.
Chenowith was dead last in votes.

28 posters voted.
2 posters left both TRob and Vonte off entirely.
1 poster had TRob over Vonte.

pdub, to be fair, had TRob 17th in his vote.
jfish did not vote.

chenoworthless

TraditionKU, may or may not have been that 1 poster who voted TRob over Vonte.
He is not here to defend himself so no one will ever know.

Dajuan Harris Jr is going to end up on that top 50 list.

And some people are going to hate.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:26 pm Dajuan Harris Jr is going to end up on that top 50 list.

And some people are going to hate.

Five years of being the starting PG is going to give Harris elite numbers in those PG stat columns and the natty will boost his cred as well. So he will be one of the top 50 in terms of accomplishments. But he isn't one of the 50 best players to play for KU at all.

My revised votes ( factoring Ochai and Jalen Wilson ):

1 Danny
2 Wilt
3 Clyde
4 Nick
5 Frank
6 Raef
7 Sherron
8 Simien
9 Gooden
10 Pierce
11 Vonte
12 Valentine
13 Kirk
14 Robisch
15 Jo Jo
16 Ochai
17 Udoka ( come at me )
18 Pritchard
19 TRob
20 Marcus Morris
21 Bud Stallworth
22 Charlie T Black ( you have to put in one of these olds dont you? )
23 Perry Ellis ( hi MICH )
24 Chalmers

And then oof.
Rush vs Cole vs Jalen.
I think it's gotta be 25. Rush

If I didn't have to have the old guy, 24. Rush 25. Jalen.
That's very tough at the end there though, I would have no argument getting Cole on there.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:31 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2024 1:26 pm Dajuan Harris Jr is going to end up on that top 50 list.

And some people are going to hate.

Five years of being the starting PG is going to give Harris elite numbers in those PG stat columns and the natty will boost his cred as well. So he will be one of the top 50 in terms of accomplishments. But he isn't one of the 50 best players to play for KU at all.

I would not be certain off the cuff that he's in the 50 best players to play for KU under Roy and Bill. He is, as you note, a good example of why career counting stats cannot be the driver here.

5 year guys will always be an asterisk for me.
Just like in my mind KU is the National Champion* in 2020.
For me, when it's said and done, Dajuan will slot in there in the mid 40's, higher than Russ Rob, but then in those debates over whether he jumps Wiggins or Tyshawn.

My guess is i'll plop him just one spot above Russ.*

Can't discount Dajuan's defensive abilities/awards.

*( I reserve the right, if somehow Dajuan learns how to score his final season, to bump Dajuan to Aaron Miles range )

For a history lesson, Charlie T Black was a NPOY, a 2 time All American and 2 time National Champion ( yes, Helms ). I feel like you gotta pick one of Charlie or Paul Endacott but you don't have to pick both.