Kansas Crimson

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:53 pm**

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:35 pm
BiggDick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:24 pm
Why do you think going "further left" is so odd?
Because I am yet to see compelling data that supports your conclusion.

It's another one of your "gut feeling" or "eye test" type opinions.

Is this ride due to stop anytime soon?

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:07 pm**

BiggDick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:02 pm in today's edition of, Holy Fuck!

yes, maybe if dems DID coach up some young stars* then they wouldn't have lost to a 78 year old felon!

For real, I'm surprised that take is controversial. What do you think the move is otherwise, to NOT coach up some young stars and prop any old schmuck up there on the chance they'll win the messaging game anyway?

*and also give those stars a chance to shine in an actual primary, rather than doubling down on an even older 81yo candidate until it was too late, only to then have to hastily pinch-hit a never-was-popular veep as candidate instead

It's not controversial. It's just word vomit.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:10 pm**

Overlander wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:53 pm
DeletedUser wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:35 pm
BiggDick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:24 pm
Why do you think going "further left" is so odd?
Because I am yet to see compelling data that supports your conclusion.

It's another one of your "gut feeling" or "eye test" type opinions.
Is this ride due to stop anytime soon?

No end in sight.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:24 pm**

I mean, one way it COULD end is to just like, stop engaging me.

It's pretty silly to prompt a response, then fuss about it if I respond.

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2024 10:18 pm**

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:35 pm
BiggDick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:24 pm
Why do you think going "further left" is so odd?
Because I am yet to see compelling data that supports your conclusion.

It's another one of your "gut feeling" or "eye test" type opinions.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/4708/healt ... ystem.aspx

59% think it's the responsibility of the federal government to make sure all Americans have healthcare coverage

78% worry a fair or great deal about the availability and affordability of healthcare

61% somewhat or very dissatisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare

81% are dissatisfied with the total cost of healthcare

69% describe the state of healthcare as either in a state of crisis or having major problems.

71% say the cost of their healthcare has gone up a little to a lot in the last year.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/4708/healt ... ystem.aspx

of course, this is just one source of polls. Lord knows there's plenty of other data out there worth discussing. And this is just on the issue of healthcare, and healthcare costs in particular. An issue which, despite what these polls indicate, was somehow hardly discussed this election BESIDES among the progressive "left."

And there's a few more gems worth discussing even within this source! I just obviously cherry picked a few I thought were most interesting. Some of the polls seem like they can be drawn along partisan lines. At least one specifically stands out as worth discussing in this particular thread. And, gee, I wonder why some of the polls didn't show any data collected since 2020?

Posted: **Tue Dec 03, 2024 10:44 pm**

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:10 pm
Overlander wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:53 pm
DeletedUser wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:35 pm

Because I am yet to see compelling data that supports your conclusion.

It's another one of your "gut feeling" or "eye test" type opinions.
Is this ride due to stop anytime soon?
No end in sight.

y’all keep feeding him

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:17 am**

BiggDick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 10:18 pm
DeletedUser wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:35 pm
BiggDick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:24 pm
Why do you think going "further left" is so odd?
Because I am yet to see compelling data that supports your conclusion.

It's another one of your "gut feeling" or "eye test" type opinions.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/4708/healt ... ystem.aspx

59% think it's the responsibility of the federal government to make sure all Americans have healthcare coverage

78% worry a fair or great deal about the availability and affordability of healthcare

61% somewhat or very dissatisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare

81% are dissatisfied with the total cost of healthcare

69% describe the state of healthcare as either in a state of crisis or having major problems.

71% say the cost of their healthcare has gone up a little to a lot in the last year.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/4708/healt ... ystem.aspx

of course, this is just one source of polls. Lord knows there's plenty of other data out there worth discussing. And this is just on the issue of healthcare, and healthcare costs in particular. An issue which, despite what these polls indicate, was somehow hardly discussed this election BESIDES among the progressive "left."

And there's a few more gems worth discussing even within this source! I just obviously cherry picked a few I thought were most interesting. Some of the polls seem like they can be drawn along partisan lines. At least one specifically stands out as worth discussing in this particular thread. And, gee, I wonder why some of the polls didn't show any data collected since 2020?

Talk to me like I am 6 years old. What does all that have to do with going "further left"?

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:56 am**

I think the point is essentially to suggest that "left" positions on health care are broadly popular. And I think the inference we're supposed to draw is that, if "left" positions are outpolling "left" candidates, then "left" candidates should be leaning harder into "left" positions.

Or something like that.

The problem is that this dichotomy is hardly unique to healthcare; go do gun control, for example.

Or, look at states like Missouri, which somehow - schizophrenically - just voted in favor of abortion rights AND an increase in the minimum wage AND and legally-protected paid leave...AND...

...you know where I'm going...

...AND Donald Trump.

Yes, one of the lessons to learn from all this is just how doggone effective Republican gerrymandering and voter suppression efforts have been.

But at least as important a lesson is that, well, cults are powerful. And they're powerful because they overwhelm reason and rationality.

(It is here I will just sigh, deeply, reflecting on the fact that our Constitution provides for a guardrail that seemed tailor-made for the exact situation we found ourselves in...and the hold Trump has on our system is so strong that we just sort of shrugged aside the Constitution.)

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 7:28 am**

but, didn’t you hear about Cornell West’s policies?

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:32 am**

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:56 am I think the point is essentially to suggest that "left" positions on health care are broadly popular. And I think the inference we're supposed to draw is that, if "left" positions are outpolling "left" candidates, then "left" candidates should be leaning harder into "left" positions.

Or something like that.

this isn't a bad take. Folks tend to be further left on many issues than they'd say out loud, depending on how it's phrased and such...and bear in mind, much of "the left" is rooted in the sort of "treat others the way you wanna be treated" sort of basic decency we learn in like kindergarten (then are basically taught to unlearn as we get older)

But at least as important a lesson is that, well, cults are powerful. And they're powerful because they overwhelm reason and rationality.

I'm sitting here wondering if it ever occurs to a cult member that they're even in a cult.

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 10:34 am**

BiggDick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:32 am
jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:56 am I think the point is essentially to suggest that "left" positions on health care are broadly popular. And I think the inference we're supposed to draw is that, if "left" positions are outpolling "left" candidates, then "left" candidates should be leaning harder into "left" positions.

Or something like that.

Folks tend to be further left on many issues than they'd say out loud, depending on how it's phrased and such...

I think you're right on top of a fundamental truth about our politics: for lots and lots of reasons, voters are much more willing to associate themselves with progressive policies than they are with progressiveness.

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 10:49 am**

President Harry Truman began the Democratic Party's effort(s) to provide health care to the American people over three-quarters of a century ago, and he failed. Democratic President LBJ somehow managed to overcome the charges of "socialized medicine" and predictions that "all the physicians will stop practicing medicine", to pass Medicare and Medicaid benefits for the elderly, disabled, and poor, in 1965. Democratic President Obama passed the Affordable Care Act in 2010.

During that same 3/4ers of a century, Republicans did everything they could to stop them. "Everything", multiple times, in multiple ways.

If health care is a panacea for getting Democrats elected, whence* Presidents Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, GHWB, GWB, and Trump?

In addition to the previous mention of gun control being a popular leftist policy, the right of a woman to choose is also "leftist" and polls favorably by a large majority.

Considering how those popular leftest policies, including national health care, have nonetheless failed to elect Democrats on a number of occasions going back decades, I think your analysis and recommendation could use some tweaking.

*"whence"

adverb
from what place or source.
"whence do they derive those powers?"

adverb
from which; from where.
"the Ural mountains, whence the ore is procured"

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 11:00 am**

Have you read “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” - therein lies the answer. Still relevant 20 years later, if not more so!!

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 11:26 am**

I did read that in college, but don't recall much...something about how heartland economic progressivism got hijacked by the conservative culture war issues?

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 11:48 am**

Pretty much. Basically, rural people will vote against their own interests in order to stick it to the “elitists”.

As far as healthcare goes, we’re the only “civilized”** nation that hasn’t figured this out. But not because we can’t; it’s because there are many people who don’t want it fixed. Similar to immigration.

**not sure how much longer we can use this term to describe the USA

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 11:57 am**

Shirley wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 10:49 am President Harry Truman began the Democratic Party's effort(s) to provide health care to the American people over three-quarters of a century ago, and he failed. Democratic President LBJ somehow managed to overcome the charges of "socialized medicine" and predictions that "all the physicians will stop practicing medicine", to pass Medicare and Medicaid benefits for the elderly, disabled, and poor, in 1965. Democratic President Obama passed the Affordable Care Act in 2010.

During that same 3/4ers of a century, Republicans did everything they could to stop them. "Everything", multiple times, in multiple ways.

If health care is a panacea for getting Democrats elected, whence* Presidents Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, GHWB, GWB, and Trump?

In addition to the previous mention of gun control being a popular leftist policy, the right of a woman to choose is also "leftist" and polls favorably by a large majority.

Considering how those popular leftest policies, including national health care, have nonetheless failed to elect Democrats on a number of occasions going back decades, I think your analysis and recommendation could use some tweaking.

*"whence"

adverb
from what place or source.
"whence do they derive those powers?"

adverb
from which; from where.
"the Ural mountains, whence the ore is procured"

good post!

I enjoy the historical context provided.

I'd like to respond to a couple of your points in particular:

- if health care is a panacea for getting Democrats elected, whence President McCain? Oh wait, that's right, he lost the election to a dood who campaigned on more progressive ideals such as, among other things, universal healthcare.

(contrast that with Kamala's campaign, which was largely just "moving to the middle" AKA largely just rebranding conservative positions but in blue.)

- "Considering how those popular leftest policies, including national health care, have nonetheless failed to elect Democrats on a number of occasions going back decades, I think your analysis and recommendation could use some tweaking."

I'm tempted to expand, but for now, let's just contrast Kamala's campaign with Barack's.

So with that said, I think this one is more like, considering how democrats have failed to leverage any momentum by actually pursuing otherwise-popular "leftist" policies, I think your analysis and recommendation could use some tweaking.

Posted: **Wed Dec 04, 2024 12:01 pm**

zsn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 11:48 am Pretty much. Basically, rural people will vote against their own interests in order to stick it to the “elitists”.

As far as healthcare goes, we’re the only “civilized”** nation that hasn’t figured this out. But not because we can’t; it’s because there are many people who don’t want it fixed. Similar to immigration.

**not sure how much longer we can use this term to describe the USA

yea!

Re: "rural people will vote against their own interests" and the whole culture war thing - I can't find the exact stat. now, but in the early 20th century, some significant portion of U.S. preachers identified as socialist. I think one big thing that since changed, maybe, is the Cold War?

Re: healthcare, yea, it's another one of those "no way to possibly fix this says the only nation where this happens" sorts of Oniony headlines.

Kansas Crimson

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