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Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:13 pm
by randylahey
jfish26 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 6:00 pm
randylahey wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 5:03 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:04 pm
Ok.
But when Person A says that Thing 1 is
less bad than Thing 2, and Person B describes Person A has having said that Thing 1 is
good, then Person B is engaging in misleading behavior.
Randy behavior.
Don’t engage in Randy behavior.
Just making shit up as you go and trying to blame it all on me. Cute
What am I blaming you for? I’m just using you as an example for this sort of behavior, constructing straw man arguments that distort what someone actually said.
You do it all the time, along with other misinformation tricks, because you hardly ever have objective, factual support for the things you desperately want to be true.
You're projecting again
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:44 pm
by defixione
You don't even know what that means.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 11:05 pm
by ousdahl
Ukraine marks 500 days of war by admitting it blew up Russia's bridge to Crimea
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine ... 2023-7?amp
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 11:21 pm
by jfish26
Whose bridge?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:35 am
by dolomite
All’s fair in love and war. Cluster bombs no exception, as well as F-16s, Abrams tanks etc…. Sock it too’em I say. Biden dragging feet since before the war, afraid of that coward Putin.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:16 am
by twocoach
dolomite wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:35 am
All’s fair in love and war. Cluster bombs no exception, as well as F-16s, Abrams tanks etc…. Sock it too’em I say. Biden dragging feet since before the war, afraid of that coward Putin.
I do not support the US sending cluster bombs to Ukraine. Period. I don't care what Russia is doing, that is stuff that should not be used on the battlefield in my opinion. It is just too dangerous to the civilian population.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:42 pm
by Sparko
twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:16 am
dolomite wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:35 am
All’s fair in love and war. Cluster bombs no exception, as well as F-16s, Abrams tanks etc…. Sock it too’em I say. Biden dragging feet since before the war, afraid of that coward Putin.
I do not support the US sending cluster bombs to Ukraine. Period. I don't care what Russia is doing, that is stuff that should not be used on the battlefield in my opinion. It is just too dangerous to the civilian population.
It isn't being used on the civilian population except by Russia. The dud rate of American cluster munitions is less than two-percent, and these munitions will be used in areas that are not densely populated by the nation who owns the areas in which they will be used. Meanwhile, Russia has laid millions of mines and is shooting artillery shells of such bad quality the dud rate may well be 50-50. They are using WW II stockpiles. Ukraine needs something that will effectively reach beyond the carpet of mines. With Russia targeting civilians with long range terror missiles, your argument, such as it is, is a weak one. Russia can leave any time. The cluster munitions are much easier to find and eradicate on the surface of the ground. Imagine the thousands of buried mines washed into playgrounds by the Russian destruction of the dam.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:51 pm
by KUTradition
i’m not a fan of these munitions, generally (same with land mines)
but, if there were a scenario where they’d be deployed with the least chance for collateral damage this definitely seems like it
the Ukrainians will have to sweep for mines when all is said and done (they’ve already voiced their commitment to such an effort), which, if my understanding is correct, would also pick up the few undetonated ordinances involved with the cluster munitions
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:01 pm
by DCHawk1
Of all the crayzee Sparko takes, I think War-Monger Sparko is my favorite.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:03 pm
by ousdahl
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:09 pm
by twocoach
Sparko wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:42 pm
twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:16 am
dolomite wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:35 am
All’s fair in love and war. Cluster bombs no exception, as well as F-16s, Abrams tanks etc…. Sock it too’em I say. Biden dragging feet since before the war, afraid of that coward Putin.
I do not support the US sending cluster bombs to Ukraine. Period. I don't care what Russia is doing, that is stuff that should not be used on the battlefield in my opinion. It is just too dangerous to the civilian population.
It isn't being used on the civilian population except by Russia. The dud rate of American cluster munitions is less than two-percent, and these munitions will be used in areas that are not densely populated by the nation who owns the areas in which they will be used. Meanwhile, Russia has laid millions of mines and is shooting artillery shells of such bad quality the dud rate may well be 50-50. They are using WW II stockpiles. Ukraine needs something that will effectively reach beyond the carpet of mines. With Russia targeting civilians with long range terror missiles, your argument, such as it is, is a weak one. Russia can leave any time. The cluster munitions are much easier to find and eradicate on the surface of the ground. Imagine the thousands of buried mines washed into playgrounds by the Russian destruction of the dam.
The fact that it is less crappy than what the Russians do isn't good enough for me. It's either right or wrong and I personally feel that it is wrong. There are too many people desperate for the funds from scrap metal and too many kids that are too curious about the things they find for your answers to make me feel OK with it. This is one that I am just not OK with.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 4:05 pm
by KUTradition
full NATO membership blocked by Germany and…wait for it…the US
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 4:19 pm
by DCHawk1
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 4:05 pm
full NATO membership blocked by Germany and…wait for it…the US
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:31 pm
by Shirley
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 4:05 pm
full NATO membership blocked by Germany and…wait for it…the US
As much as I'm in favor of defending Ukraine even more aggressively than we already are, isn't it true that the instant Ukraine becomes a member of NATO, if they're still at war with Russia at the time, we'll be instantaneously at war with Russia, too?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:19 pm
by Shirley
What happened to the party that used to at least pretend to be strong on national defense?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:21 pm
by DCHawk1
Same thing that happened to the anti-war party, I'd guess.
McGovern spinning in his grave.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:12 pm
by Shirley
DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:21 pm
Same thing that happened to the anti-war party, I'd guess.
McGovern spinning in his grave.
While I get your point, a reasonable person might think conflating the US occupation of Vietnam with > 500,000 American troops with defending Ukraine against a Russian invasion, might be a stretch.
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:13 pm
by KUTradition
Feral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:31 pm
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 4:05 pm
full NATO membership blocked by Germany and…wait for it…the US
As much as I'm in favor of defending Ukraine even more aggressively than we already are, isn't it true that the instant Ukraine becomes a member of NATO, if they're still at war with Russia at the time, we'll be instantaneously at war with Russia, too?
that’s the way the agreement is written, i believe
an attack on one is an an attack on all
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:14 pm
by Shirley
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:13 pm
Feral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:31 pm
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 4:05 pm
full NATO membership blocked by Germany and…wait for it…the US
As much as I'm in favor of defending Ukraine even more aggressively than we already are, isn't it true that the instant Ukraine becomes a member of NATO, if they're still at war with Russia at the time, we'll be instantaneously at war with Russia, too?
that’s the way the agreement is written, i believe
an attack on one is an an attack on all
And, that's what you wanted Biden to do?
Re: Let’s have a war!
Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:22 pm
by KUTradition
Feral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:14 pm
KUTradition wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:13 pm
Feral wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:31 pm
As much as I'm in favor of defending Ukraine even more aggressively than we already are, isn't it true that the instant Ukraine becomes a member of NATO, if they're still at war with Russia at the time, we'll be instantaneously at war with Russia, too?
that’s the way the agreement is written, i believe
an attack on one is an an attack on all
And, that's what you wanted Biden to do?
yes
but i also think the trickle and gradual ramp-up of support has been problematic. in a sense, putin has been allowed to control the situation and inflict unnecessary harm on civilians. there’s a big part of me that wishes “we” coulda showed a bit more resolve from the get-go, and provide all of the support we are now, initially (along with the full force of sanctions…again, not a fan of the trickle and gradual ramping up)
given the comparison in the reports coming out, giving Ukraine the Israel treatment, i’m now wondering why this wasn’t done sometime between 2014 and 2022