NFL 2021

[CrimsonNBlue]

I'm pretty sure we could find a post here by any poster that would get people fired up against any particular one of us

Feel free to go through my posts and find anything that would be categorized as racist, mysogynistic or homophobic, let alone years of examples of all three.

Gruden didn't lose his job over one little off the cuff statement made 10 years ago. It was dozens of examples of all three of those inexcusable behaviors spanning more than 7 years. Stop this "pretty sure we could find a post here by any poster" BS. I dont know what your text and email history contains, but mine contains none of that.

People who.post stuff as openly racist, mysogynistic and homophobic as what Gruden sent in those emails get banned from this site.

Yep. I’m no saint overall, but calling a black person Michelin man lips in 2011 or Michael Sam a queer in 2015ish . . . Vast majority here weren’t doing that at that time. People that did say stuff like that at that time, especially in a medium like email to high ranking brass, don’t seem like shy people and it certainly seems to say something about their true beliefs.

Some by default are set out to defend people having the autonomy to say racist shit without consequence. Believe what you wish, but what a hill to die on.

[Deleted User 887]

In today's edition of hypocrisy at its finest.....

NOT funny how many on the right had little problem with Trump's "locker room" talk and felt it shouldn't be a character issue that should prevent him from being elected President but Gruden is this terrible person who should in no way be an NFL coach.


I'm curious as to if this was sincere or bullshit. I'll let others decide.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/raiders- ... jon-gruden

[jfish26]

I'm pretty sure we could find a post here by any poster that would get people fired up against any particular one of us

Feel free to go through my posts and find anything that would be categorized as racist, mysogynistic or homophobic, let alone years of examples of all three.

Gruden didn't lose his job over one little off the cuff statement made 10 years ago. It was dozens of examples of all three of those inexcusable behaviors spanning more than 7 years. Stop this "pretty sure we could find a post here by any poster" BS. I dont know what your text and email history contains, but mine contains none of that.

People who.post stuff as openly racist, mysogynistic and homophobic as what Gruden sent in those emails get banned from this site.

Yep. I’m no saint overall, but calling a black person Michelin man lips in 2011 or Michael Sam a queer in 2015ish . . . Vast majority here weren’t doing that at that time. People that did say stuff like that at that time, especially in a medium like email to high ranking brass, don’t seem like shy people and it certainly seems to say something about their true beliefs.

Some by default are set out to defend people having the autonomy to say racist shit without consequence. Believe what you wish, but what a hill to die on.

I don't have right answers for what past conduct is clearly fair game, and what is not.

This is as close to an answer as I can conjure, and it's really just a theme: https://deadspin.com/the-reckoning-alwa ... 1819874125

But - there is a massive qualitative difference between, like, finding pictures of a college kid in blackface at a party in 1983 and trying to cancel him in 2021, and someone who is already a very very famous public figure saying this shit in 2011-2018.

[CrimsonNBlue]

But - there is a massive qualitative difference between, like, finding pictures of a college kid in blackface at a party in 1983 and trying to cancel him in 2021, and someone who is already a very very famous public figure saying this shit in 2011-2018.

This is the point. This wasn’t all said to a rookie Brett Favre in the locker room.

And then to top it off: the choice of medium.

[twocoach]

Feel free to go through my posts and find anything that would be categorized as racist, mysogynistic or homophobic, let alone years of examples of all three.

Gruden didn't lose his job over one little off the cuff statement made 10 years ago. It was dozens of examples of all three of those inexcusable behaviors spanning more than 7 years. Stop this "pretty sure we could find a post here by any poster" BS. I dont know what your text and email history contains, but mine contains none of that.

People who.post stuff as openly racist, mysogynistic and homophobic as what Gruden sent in those emails get banned from this site.

Yep. I’m no saint overall, but calling a black person Michelin man lips in 2011 or Michael Sam a queer in 2015ish . . . Vast majority here weren’t doing that at that time. People that did say stuff like that at that time, especially in a medium like email to high ranking brass, don’t seem like shy people and it certainly seems to say something about their true beliefs.

Some by default are set out to defend people having the autonomy to say racist shit without consequence. Believe what you wish, but what a hill to die on.

I don't have right answers for what past conduct is clearly fair game, and what is not.

This is as close to an answer as I can conjure, and it's really just a theme: https://deadspin.com/the-reckoning-alwa ... 1819874125

But - there is a massive qualitative difference between, like, finding pictures of a college kid in blackface at a party in 1983 and trying to cancel him in 2021, and someone who is already a very very famous public figure saying this shit in 2011-2018.

And there is a massive qualitative difference between a one time event and thousands of instances of something over years.

[jfish26]

Yep. I’m no saint overall, but calling a black person Michelin man lips in 2011 or Michael Sam a queer in 2015ish . . . Vast majority here weren’t doing that at that time. People that did say stuff like that at that time, especially in a medium like email to high ranking brass, don’t seem like shy people and it certainly seems to say something about their true beliefs.

Some by default are set out to defend people having the autonomy to say racist shit without consequence. Believe what you wish, but what a hill to die on.

I don't have right answers for what past conduct is clearly fair game, and what is not.

This is as close to an answer as I can conjure, and it's really just a theme: https://deadspin.com/the-reckoning-alwa ... 1819874125

But - there is a massive qualitative difference between, like, finding pictures of a college kid in blackface at a party in 1983 and trying to cancel him in 2021, and someone who is already a very very famous public figure saying this shit in 2011-2018.

And there is a difference between a one time event and thousands of instances of something over years.

Of course I agree with you in principle, but I also come back to this quite often: it's not common for anyone to do any particular bad thing once.

[pdub]

We've talked about this before in the form of comedians.

Do I think what Gruden said was right? Of course not.
Do I think it warrants him being fired? ( and he was fired if he hadn't resigned ) No.
You bring the conversation to the table - and let him explain his case - and now he clearly knows the culture has changed and none of that is acceptable today.

Magary's article is apt. People ride with the culture. Now the mainstream culture doesn't think that's appropriate. So he can't ( though i'd argue he'd still be doing it - despite him saying he doesn't anymore just because he doesn't think it's funny ). It's happening to comedians too. So you change. I would say generally for the better -- but being afraid of one current joke cancelling you -- or private emails from 10 years ago cancelling you -- isn't a healthy environment either.

10 years from now, will we be able to tell jokes that are offensive to anyone?
I'm serious.

If it offends a certain group, any group, will people say, well, then it's not a good joke.
Fat jokes? Sex jokes? Height jokes? Drunk jokes? Mental illness jokes? Poor people jokes?

[twocoach]

I just don't want to hear the "didn't you guys say something dumb once in college" BS for this. That doesn't apply to this specific situation at all.

[pdub]

I will add that twocoach is correct in that, today, if someone was posting content like that, they'd be banned. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have been in 2011.

[twocoach]

We've talked about this before in the form of comedians.

Do I think what Gruden said was right? Of course not.
Do I think it warrants him being fired? ( and he was fired if he hadn't resigned ) No.
You bring the conversation to the table - and let him explain his case - and now he clearly knows the culture has changed and none of that is acceptable today.

Magary's article is apt. People ride with the culture. Now the mainstream culture doesn't think that's appropriate. So he can't ( though i'd argue he'd still be doing it - despite him saying he doesn't anymore just because he doesn't think it's funny ). It's happening to comedians too. So you change. I would say generally for the better -- but being afraid of one current joke cancelling you -- or private emails from 10 years ago cancelling you -- isn't a healthy environment either.

10 years from now, will we be able to tell jokes that are offensive to anyone?
I'm serious.

If it offends a certain group, any group, will people say, well, then it's not a good joke.
Fat jokes? Sex jokes? Height jokes? Drunk jokes? Mental illness jokes? Poor people jokes?

If you sent the emails that Jon Gruden sent at my job in 2011 you would be fired. Stop with the old slippery slope BS.

[pdub]

I just don't want to hear the "didn't you guys say something dumb once in college" BS for this. That doesn't apply to this specific situation at all.

I'm not talking once.
I'm talking every weekend casual talk in college, if filmed, would have most of us, if we were public figures, putting in our resignations.

[twocoach]

I just don't want to hear the "didn't you guys say something dumb once in college" BS for this. That doesn't apply to this specific situation at all.

I'm not talking once.
I'm talking every weekend casual talk in college, if filmed, would have most of us, if we were public figures, putting in our resignations.

You and I must have had different friends. We had one guy who used to hang around my friend group who used to call one of my friends "Jew boy" and he got punched in the face and was told not to hang around any more.

[pdub]

Yes, twocoach, we all aspire to live in a world like yours.
Punching people in the face.

[twocoach]

Yes, twocoach, we all aspire to live in a world like yours.
Punching people in the face.

That's the problem you found in that situation. Got it. I guess I see why you wouldn't want your college conversations on record.

We handled his groping of a female at a party at his house by taking a shit in his washing machine. Better?

[CrimsonNBlue]

Comedians are not applicable here. Operate in a completely different environment on the PC sliding scale. The market really gets to decide that, because jokes that go over the line just aren't funny.

Louis CK is playing sold out shows. Chappelle is the only guy that dares to joke about the LGBTQIA community and he's the biggest name in the game.

Gruden, not a comedian, worked for Disney and sent hundreds, maybe thousands of offensive emails to NFL addresses--the majority of them being after Donald Sterling. At best, he's a dumbass that has no qualms about saying offensive things.

[pdub]

Punching people in the face is not a problem according to twocoach.

[jfish26]

We've talked about this before in the form of comedians.

Do I think what Gruden said was right? Of course not.
Do I think it warrants him being fired? ( and he was fired if he hadn't resigned ) No.
You bring the conversation to the table - and let him explain his case - and now he clearly knows the culture has changed and none of that is acceptable today.

Magary's article is apt. People ride with the culture. Now the mainstream culture doesn't think that's appropriate. So he can't ( though i'd argue he'd still be doing it - despite him saying he doesn't anymore just because he doesn't think it's funny ). It's happening to comedians too. So you change. I would say generally for the better -- but being afraid of one current joke cancelling you -- or private emails from 10 years ago cancelling you -- isn't a healthy environment either.

10 years from now, will we be able to tell jokes that are offensive to anyone?
I'm serious.

If it offends a certain group, any group, will people say, well, then it's not a good joke.
Fat jokes? Sex jokes? Height jokes? Drunk jokes? Mental illness jokes? Poor people jokes?

But again, this isn't immature jokes by college kids. This was emails from an already-very-very-famous public figure! Emails that, if he read them on-air at the job where he was then being paid millions of dollars to talk on TV, would then have got him fired from TV. Yes, in 2011-2018.

I guess what I'm saying is this isn't Gruden being judged by the standards of now. If you take all the cool shit that comes with the job he had at the time, then the bare minimum is that you need to apply the "would I say this on-air" standard to what you're emailing!

[pdub]

Comedians are not applicable here. Operate in a completely different environment on the PC sliding scale. The market really gets to decide that, because jokes that go over the line just aren't funny.

Louis CK is playing sold out shows. Chappelle is the only guy that dares to joke about the LGBTQIA community and he's the biggest name in the game.

Gruden, not a comedian, worked for Disney and sent hundreds, maybe thousands of offensive emails to NFL addresses--the majority of them being after Donald Sterling. At best, he's a dumbass that has no qualms about saying offensive things.

He's an idiot.
He's also a Raiders coach so I can't lie to see i'm happy they are back in turmoil.
Private emails from 10 years ago would warrant multiple long conversations for me rather than his being fired.

[twocoach]

Punching people in the face is not a problem according to twocoach.

Hey look over there!

[twocoach]

Comedians are not applicable here. Operate in a completely different environment on the PC sliding scale. The market really gets to decide that, because jokes that go over the line just aren't funny.

Louis CK is playing sold out shows. Chappelle is the only guy that dares to joke about the LGBTQIA community and he's the biggest name in the game.

Gruden, not a comedian, worked for Disney and sent hundreds, maybe thousands of offensive emails to NFL addresses--the majority of them being after Donald Sterling. At best, he's a dumbass that has no qualms about saying offensive things.

He's an idiot.
He's also a Raiders coach so I can't lie to see i'm happy they are back in turmoil.
Private emails from 10 years ago would warrant multiple long conversations for me rather than his being fired.

Emails sent to a person's work email when that person works for a multi-billion dollar organization are not private.