Kansas Crimson

ousdahl wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:33 am It’s more ref judgment, but maybe a weak side defender should have to be upright to be rewarded the charge?

If you have to jump in feet first at a 45 degree angle to get under a offensive player already going up, that’s not good basketball

Again, has nothing to do with primary or secondary, the problem there is the jumping in when the guy has already gathered.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:26 am

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:19 am

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:06 am I'm gonna use the word willy nilly here but I don't think offensive players should be able to attack the basket willy nilly with no regard of who is in the way.

It shouldn't matter if you're another player who wasn't originally guarding the guy - if he rams into you and you're just standing there, it should be a foul, on him.

Agreed.

They just need to get better at calling it.

If it's too difficult for the officials to govern, then you need to look at the rule. That goes beyond men's division 1 basketball.

How is it that the women's game is better at adapting their rules than the men's?

The men's game has evolved beyond the current refereeing plan. The players are simply too big, too strong and too fast for the current refereeing model of how refs move and who has what assignment of what to watch for and where. They need to add a 4th ref so they can have two on the end line and two behind the action near the sidelines and then have those four guys slide up and down the court. Today's sport puts refs in bad positions to make calls on a regular basis.

The women's game is not yet too big, too strong and too fast for the current refereeing model so they have less to adapt to.

There really is no "primary defender charge." No requirement to be set when you're in that position, and logically impossible to jump in under the guy you are guarding.

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:33 am
But the "slide in there as the guy is rising to shoot" seems to have pretty universal agreement in that it needs to be called a block.

I think that agreement is pretty universal because that's what the rule book says it to be.

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:34 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:26 am

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:19 am

Agreed.

They just need to get better at calling it.

If it's too difficult for the officials to govern, then you need to look at the rule. That goes beyond men's division 1 basketball.

How is it that the women's game is better at adapting their rules than the men's?

The men's game has evolved beyond the current refereeing plan. The players are simply too big, too strong and too fast for the current refereeing model of how refs move and who has what assignment of what to watch for and where. They need to add a 4th ref so they can have two on the end line and two behind the action near the sidelines and then have those four guys slide up and down the court. Today's sport puts refs in bad positions to make calls on a regular basis.

The women's game is not yet too big, too strong and too fast for the current refereeing model so they have less to adapt to.

But yet the women's game still did great things with their rules by changing to 4 quarters (and thus, foul shot rules), and getting rid of time limits to cross halfcourt.

I agree on the players evolving thing. I also think allowing continuation would help cut down on these egregious and dangerous attempts to draw secondary charges.

Going to 4 quarters seems like a must for the men's game. About the only real competition left that has it, and quirkiness is not a good reason to not make the game better.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:35 am There really is no "primary defender charge." No requirement to be set when you're in that position, and logically impossible to jump in under the guy you are guarding.

Then they just suck at determining what "legal guarding position" is because I would bet that easily 80% of the charge calls are the wrong call based on the rule as written. So not only do they need to fix the rule; they also need to teach them what does and does not meet the criteria of the rule.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:38 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:34 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:26 am

If it's too difficult for the officials to govern, then you need to look at the rule. That goes beyond men's division 1 basketball.

How is it that the women's game is better at adapting their rules than the men's?

The men's game has evolved beyond the current refereeing plan. The players are simply too big, too strong and too fast for the current refereeing model of how refs move and who has what assignment of what to watch for and where. They need to add a 4th ref so they can have two on the end line and two behind the action near the sidelines and then have those four guys slide up and down the court. Today's sport puts refs in bad positions to make calls on a regular basis.

The women's game is not yet too big, too strong and too fast for the current refereeing model so they have less to adapt to.

But yet the women's game still did great things with their rules by changing to 4 quarters (and thus, foul shot rules), and getting rid of time limits to cross halfcourt.

I agree on the players evolving thing. I also think allowing continuation would help cut down on these egregious and dangerous attempts to draw secondary charges.

Going to 4 quarters seems like a must for the men's game. About the only real competition left that has it, and quirkiness is not a good reason to not make the game better.

I fully agree that the four quarters and the changing of the fouls with that is a must.

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:18 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:15 am

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:06 am I'm gonna use the word willy nilly here but I don't think offensive players should be able to attack the basket willy nilly with no regard of who is in the way.

It shouldn't matter if you're another player who wasn't originally guarding the guy - if he rams into you and you're just standing there, it should be a foul, on him.

That's silly gotcha basketball. The rules should not encourage this (and it is in fact dangerous to everyone involved that they presently do).

Help defense isn't " gotcha" basketball. It's a team sport.

I suppose it's a matter of individual interpretation, but I don't think it's "help" defense (in a manner that should be rewarded) for a guy to be there as a road block in the case his teammate gets beat.

That is stupid.

Help defense is movement and communication. You should have to help defend, not help by inserting yourself into the way.

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:40 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:35 am There really is no "primary defender charge." No requirement to be set when you're in that position, and logically impossible to jump in under the guy you are guarding.

Then they just suck at determining what "legal guarding position" is because I would bet that easily 80% of the charge calls are the wrong call based on the rule as written. So not only do they need to fix the rule; they also need to teach them what does and does not meet the criteria of the rule.

I think CnB's point though is that if every ref sucks at calling it, there's something wrong with the rule...

Though I don't know if I agree. The Wiggins/Embiid year they made that a point of emphasis. Early in the season that resulted in a lot more free throws, then players adjusted. But then the refs sometime since then seemed to forget .

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:41 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:18 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:15 am

That's silly gotcha basketball. The rules should not encourage this (and it is in fact dangerous to everyone involved that they presently do).

Help defense isn't " gotcha" basketball. It's a team sport.

I suppose it's a matter of individual interpretation, but I don't think it's "help" defense (in a manner that should be rewarded) for a guy to be there as a road block in the case his teammate gets beat.

That is stupid.

Help defense is movement and communication. You should have to help defend, not help by inserting yourself into the way.

Movement to get in the way. Getting in the way is useless if the guy with the ball is allowed to just run you over

Not that I'm for or against the change, but how would changing from halves to quarters make the game any better?

"Because every one else does" seems like just as dumb of a reason as keeping it for the uniqueness.

Fellas seem really loose with the videos released.

Also, I want to hate Jay Wright, but he's too nice, I just can't. I haven't found a coach that has shown more respect in a seemingly sincere way then what Jay Wright has shown over the last 15 years.

imo, the rule itself matters less than refs’ inability to enforce the rule consistently and equitably throughout the season

(not just charge/block, but any rule really)

it seems the whole officiating system for the ncaa needs an overhaul

NewtonHawk11 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:48 am Also, I want to hate Jay Wright, but he's too nice, I just can't. I haven't found a coach that has shown more respect in a seemingly sincere way then what Jay Wright has shown over the last 15 years.

ditto

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:52 am imo, the rule itself matters less than refs’ inability to enforce the rule consistently and equitably throughout the season

(not just charge/block, but any rule really)

it seems the whole officiating system for the ncaa needs an overhaul

This is always going to be a problem when a game is played at the speed it is and a number of these calls are judgment calls.

NDballer13 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:56 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:52 am imo, the rule itself matters less than refs’ inability to enforce the rule consistently and equitably throughout the season

(not just charge/block, but any rule really)

it seems the whole officiating system for the ncaa needs an overhaul

This is always going to be a problem when a game is played at the speed it is and a number of these calls are judgment calls.

kind of

the issue Bilas pointed out with regular season vs tourney and the way conferences set the tone rather than the ncaa, i think, is something that could rather easily be addressed and result in better consistency

the equitable part may never be able to be fixed because of crowds, home courts, underdogs, etc

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:46 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:41 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:18 am

Help defense isn't " gotcha" basketball. It's a team sport.

I suppose it's a matter of individual interpretation, but I don't think it's "help" defense (in a manner that should be rewarded) for a guy to be there as a road block in the case his teammate gets beat.

That is stupid.

Help defense is movement and communication. You should have to help defend, not help by inserting yourself into the way.

Movement to get in the way. Getting in the way is useless if the guy with the ball is allowed to just run you over

Which is exactly why the rules should be oriented away from encouraging off-ball defenders to simply insert themselves in the way of the guy with the ball. That should be a useless move.

NDballer13 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:46 am Not that I'm for or against the change, but how would changing from halves to quarters make the game any better?

"Because every one else does" seems like just as dumb of a reason as keeping it for the uniqueness.

Watch B1G basketball, Huggins, Weber, Martin, etc., way too many foul shots at the end of the halves. We have seen teams be in the double bonus with double digit minutes left. That's not fun to watch.

Too many fouls committed in D-1 ball--quarters reset the foul count. It's especially bad in women's ball, so they changed the rule.

Quarters also makes the TV experience better, especially the NCAA tournament, regarding the outrageous amount of commercial breaks.

With quarters, there would only be 3 official media timeouts per half rather than 4.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-baske ... four-picks

If you don't have ESPN+, here's the section on Kansas:

How they win

On post players: "It starts on the inside-out. Between [David] McCormack, [Mitch] Lightfoot, you have to figure out post defense. That's what opens it up for [Ochai] Agbaji, [Christian] Braun, then you start playing on closeouts. Puts you in peril against the big wings. The two posts are good passers. You have to dig on the post or help on the post, but those guys can pass to the help side. You can't say that about every post player."

On perimeter: "Braun and Agbaji are two of the elite wings in the country, at both sides of the floor. The emergence of Remy [Martin] -- I didn't think he would be [most outstanding] player of the region. You can't help off anyone now. You can help off [Dajuan] Harris [Jr.], but not Remy. It poses a lot of questions."

On balance: "Their wings are big and long. The guy that gets lost in the shuffle sometimes is [Jalen] Wilson, and he can hit you from inside and out. They're one of the more complete teams left in the tournament. Our scout earlier in the year was [saying] how the hell do you stop Agbaji. Now, the other guys can get you. Against Miami, they figured it out. A lot of it is they haven't played a lot of minutes together in real games. It seems like they're jelling well together. [Bill] Self does a great job defining roles. It seems like they've figured it out."

On defense: "Defensively, the two guards pester the ball in Harris and Remy. Then what they've done in the last three weeks, counting the Big 12 tournament, their defense has been better now than it had been at any point in the season. Their defense wasn't great, but they've been really good defensively. I think it's a focus thing defensively. Guys always played hard, but they just didn't have the focus on the little details. Taking away a catch-and-shoot guy from shooting a 3. They were locked in vs. Miami. They switch, keep you out of the lane. They don't have breakdowns, you don't have easy baskets against them in the half court."

On Ochai Agbaji: "Ochai is the guy, no question. When he's at their best, they're at their best. He can score in so many different ways. He is getting his within the framework of the team. He can shoot at 25 seconds, 15 seconds or five. Remy is not like that. He's creating the offense for himself. Because he doesn't allow the offense to flow as well, it becomes more iso ball."

Why they've lost

"We tried to get them in transition when we could. If you have a stretch-5, I think it puts them in peril a little bit. McCormack and Lightfoot aren't the most mobile bigs, so it's hard for them to switch 1 through 5. If you have a pick-and-pop 5, it draws their bigs away. That's where you can kind of get them. It's really hard to score in the paint on them. The bigs are probably the weak spot, if you have a big that can pop. Not roll. You can expose them some in that respect. But they've played K.J. Adams and the [Zach] Clemence kid, so if that becomes an issue, they've played minutes."

"One of the keys is David McCormack. He doesn't have to be explosive, but if teams can exploit him defensively. Texas Tech did it by pulling him away from the basket. If Duke plays them and he's matched up with Paolo [Banchero], it's a problem. He's not comfortable on the perimeter. But when he's anchoring the lane, then he's a little bit better. They can get some lineups that don't score well. They don't go super deep -- so you can get them into foul trouble and get deeper into their bench."

X factor

"Remy Martin. It's not a knock on Harris or the [transfer] from Drake [Joseph Yesufu], but you're not afraid of those kids like Martin. Earlier in the year, we didn't really respect Martin. We could help or dig on the post, stunt to shooters, because he wasn't in enough rhythm. It looks like he's in rhythm now."

"I lean McCormack [as the X factor]. Remy Martin played eight Big 12 games, they won the league and he hardly played. They can win without him. When McCormack has played poorly, they've really struggled. If he plays well, they're really, really hard to beat. Otherwise, teams can put pressure on your perimeter guys, Ochai especially. Throw it inside, get a basket, put foul pressure on the other team's bigs, it changes the game. You don't think about doubling if he's not playing well."

Plays you must stop

"Their traditional two-[man] game -- when they put the ball in the post and raise their weak side, who are you helping off of and who are you digging off of? It's always been that, how are you going to stop the two-game. It's easier to help when there are non-shooters on the floor. They never had non-shooters. You could never help off anybody. With Remy making shots, it puts question marks on how you want to guard them. Bill's going to be Bill. They're not going to come into the game and run new s---. They run what they run."

"Bill's the best in-game coach in the country. He will do whatever his team needs him to do to win. He'll zone, he'll play triangle-and-2, he'll play small, he'll play bigger, he'll play Remy after not playing him at all. He doesn't care. He just wants to win that day. Whatever that looks like, he'll do it. That gives them the edge over everybody else."

What happens on Saturday?

"I think they're going to have to figure out Gillespie, what's that matchup? He does a good job posting up. Jay Wright does a great job posting up their guards. As good as Remy Martin is on offense, he's not big on defense. We don't really have guards in the Big 12 that post up. What's the answer? Can Villanova keep Kansas off the backboards? And I think tempo. Villanova plays at a slow tempo. If they can keep Kansas out of transition, that's how they get you. Braun and Agbaji 3s in transition is how they [the Jayhawks] break you. Battle of who wins the paint: Villanova guards vs. Kansas bigs."

"Neither one of them is particularly deep, but the loss of Justin Moore is the equivalent of Kansas losing Ochai. That's their best guy. As tough as Collin is, I think Justin is their best player. I think that ultimately puts Kansas over the top. I think it'll be a really, really close game. Villanova still has that championship pedigree. They do what they do. But Kansas wins by three possessions."