Kansas Crimson

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:27 am Tell that to UNC, Bacot and Manek.

He had a great game! And a great tournament! And a very good senior season!

But don't tarnish it by making foolish suggestions, like him being better at playing basketball than Withey. It's just not close.

2012 Withey to 2022 Dave is close to me.
It's why I put them in that category.

Withey had 4 points and 5 points in the Final Four and the Championship - a total of 9.
DMac had 40.

There were a lot of games where Withey had 4 points. Or 2 points. Or 6 points.
He wasn't used on the offense much because he didn't have a skillset there.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:56 am
If you are a 1-2 seed-type, and you need to go win a basketball game, are you choosing Jr/Sr Withey, or Sr Dave.

considering big dave won us one of the biggest games in program history. on the biggest stage. and those others did not. i will take big dave thanks.

that was your question.

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:41 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:56 am
If you are a 1-2 seed-type, and you need to go win a basketball game, are you choosing Jr/Sr Withey, or Sr Dave.

considering big dave won us one of the biggest games in program history. on the biggest stage. and those others did not. i will take big dave thanks.

that was your question.

Right.
This was a bad question.
Probably woulda been better if asked, if you want a player all season, who are you choosing?
That would have been closer.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:39 am 2012 Withey to 2022 Dave is close to me.
It's why I put them in that category.

Yeah, I just don't see it that way. You could talk me into Dave being a better fit than Withey on a more bubblicious team. I absolutely agree Dave had a more comprehensive offensive skillset.

But Withey was a one-man defense. That's just insanely, insanely valuable (and the advanced stats say that his offensive production was pretty similar to Dave's, anyway).

if you are taking jwith. i question your iq. they were both on the biggest stage. one was the unofficial mvp and brought us home a championship.

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:41 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:56 am
If you are a 1-2 seed-type, and you need to go win a basketball game, are you choosing Jr/Sr Withey, or Sr Dave.

considering big dave won us one of the biggest games in program history. on the biggest stage. and those others did not. i will take big dave thanks.

that was your question.

none of that was part of the original question

lol

Agree to disagree.
I won't insult your BBIQ in the process.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:43 am

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:41 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:56 am
If you are a 1-2 seed-type, and you need to go win a basketball game, are you choosing Jr/Sr Withey, or Sr Dave.

considering big dave won us one of the biggest games in program history. on the biggest stage. and those others did not. i will take big dave thanks.

that was your question.

Right.
This was a bad question.
Probably woulda been better if asked, if you want a player all season, who are you choosing?
That would have been closer.

But that is what I asked. If you need to win a basketball game, are you picking Jr/Sr Withey, or Sr Dave.

Not "this game Withey" or "that game Dave".

mich questioning anyone’s iq is high-larious

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:45 am

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:41 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:56 am
If you are a 1-2 seed-type, and you need to go win a basketball game, are you choosing Jr/Sr Withey, or Sr Dave.

considering big dave won us one of the biggest games in program history. on the biggest stage. and those others did not. i will take big dave thanks.

that was your question.

none of that was part of the original question

lol

"and you need to go win a basketball game"

I don't think it's unfair to bring in a MOP performance in one of the biggest games in Kansas history into this conversation if the above is the subject in question.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:46 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:45 am

MICHHAWK wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:41 am

considering big dave won us one of the biggest games in program history. on the biggest stage. and those others did not. i will take big dave thanks.

that was your question.

none of that was part of the original question

lol

"and you need to go win a basketball game"

I don't think it's unfair to bring in a MOP performance in one of the biggest games in Kansas history into this conversation if the above is the subject in question.

i didn’t say it was unfair…it very obviously wasn’t part of the initial question

all credit to DMac for showing out on the biggest stage

i still take Withey. better defense and greater consistency

It really depends on the make up of my team.
Would I swap 2022 Dave for Withey on 2012? No. Because we had TRob.
Would I swap 2012 Withey for DMac 22? No. Because then we would have little to no post scoring.

that’s definitely a big part of it too

the fact that this is even a discussion about DMac, despite his having shown out on the biggest stage, should tell you all you need to know

And again, go back and watch the tape.
Defenses would swarm DMac. He was constantly doubled ( partly because he had the habit of taking the ball too low but mostly because he was our only interior thread ). He put up his numbers despite that.

You wouldn't need to double 2012 Withey in the post so more attention could have been made on Ochai and Braun and Wilson.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:48 am It really depends on the make up of my team.
Would I swap 2022 Dave for Withey on 2012? No. Because we had TRob.
Would I swap 2012 Withey for DMac 22? No. Because then we would have little to no post scoring.

I think this grossly undercounts Withey's defensive value.

He was not great for Bill Self, or great for KU, or whatever.

He was historically great.

1st in Big 12 (from 2009 forward) in career DRtg, 11th in NCAA (from 2009 forward) in career DRtg.

Similar on block percentage.

Even better when using Defensive Box Plus/Minus.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:51 am the fact that this is even a discussion about DMac, despite his having shown out on the biggest stage, should tell you all you need to know

I agree if the comment was "he wasn't one of our best bigs".
That's totally true.
2013 Withey i'd take over him.

I'd still take the NCAA MOP and 2nd team All B12 DMac on certain squads.
And 12 Withey on others.
It's why I put them in the 'about even' category.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:57 am I'd still take the NCAA MOP and 2nd team All B12 DMac on certain squads.
And 12 Withey on others.
It's why I put them in the 'about even' category.

Fine, and you'd be wrong. The only context where you'd rather have Dave is where you have very little other offense (although I'd note that our 2011-12 and 2012-13 teams weren't exactly dynamic on the offensive end anyway).