Kansas Crimson

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:33 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:29 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:26 am

I don't think KU would be pulling coaches off of the recruiting trail as a response to new allegations. It just feels like they are starting to dole out some self-imposed punishments that they feel they can deal with. Self and Townsend off the recruiting trail for a bit is not much of a big deal being that coaches can still contact recruits in a variety of ways. I don't think this is very complicated at all.

The complicated is the “why,” not the “what.”

There is no way we would do this just because. There’s a reason, and the reason matters a lot.

Sorry. The "why" would be a proactive step as a result of our case just like dozens of other schools have done in the past in hoped of lessening their punishment. I didn't think I needed to add that. We obviously wouldn't do it "just because".

We just see this differently I guess. Ask Mizzou what value proactiveness has anymore (if it ever had much to begin with).

I really do not think we would start cooperating now, absent something changing in the case (good or bad). From a litigation strategy standpoint, which is very much the right lens here, you would not give up the two best things you have (time and the credible threat of fighting over every inch of ground), otherwise.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:43 amI really do not think we would start cooperating now, absent something changing in the case (good or bad).

I think it is also makes sense that nothing has changed, we're just at this point of the process now (which took too long).

But, of course, things have changed for KU Hoops and Self over the last few months, and also the NCAA, that is not directly related to this case.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:43 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:33 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:29 am

The complicated is the “why,” not the “what.”

There is no way we would do this just because. There’s a reason, and the reason matters a lot.

Sorry. The "why" would be a proactive step as a result of our case just like dozens of other schools have done in the past in hoped of lessening their punishment. I didn't think I needed to add that. We obviously wouldn't do it "just because".

We just see this differently I guess. Ask Mizzou what value proactiveness has anymore (if it ever had much to begin with).

I really do not think we would start cooperating now, absent something changing in the case (good or bad). From a litigation strategy standpoint, which is very much the right lens here, you would not give up the two best things you have (time and the credible threat of fighting over every inch of ground), otherwise.

This is basically a symbolic jesture with no significant impact whatsoever so I don't mind it at all. It was noted by one national writer and is over a period of time where there isn't a ton going on. They missed Peach Jam but Norm Roberts was still there recruiting for KU and Roberts is an excellent recruiter with great rapport with recruits so really, this is a lot of nothing .

watch our apparent self-imposed recruiting restrictions end up being the NCAA's smoking gun.

"If, hypothetically, we agree to just drop this whole mess if you guys offer some token penance, would you take that deal?"

hypothetically? sure.

GOTCHA!!!!

InfiniteJ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:23 am

One of the few times I have agreed with Dick Vitale on this whole mess.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:10 pm watch our apparent self-imposed recruiting restrictions end up being the NCAA's smoking gun.

"If, hypothetically, we agree to just drop this whole mess if you guys offer some token penance, would you take that deal?"

hypothetically? sure.

GOTCHA!!!!

Do you honestly feel like that's how any of this has gone?

I don't.

isn't that how much of this shit escalated in the first place?

"now real quick, just kinda spitballing here, what if we...you know...hypothetically called the Adidas guy a 'booster?' "

We don't seem to view that instance you referenced above the same. Which is fine.

Nbd.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:19 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:43 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:33 am

Sorry. The "why" would be a proactive step as a result of our case just like dozens of other schools have done in the past in hoped of lessening their punishment. I didn't think I needed to add that. We obviously wouldn't do it "just because".

We just see this differently I guess. Ask Mizzou what value proactiveness has anymore (if it ever had much to begin with).

I really do not think we would start cooperating now, absent something changing in the case (good or bad). From a litigation strategy standpoint, which is very much the right lens here, you would not give up the two best things you have (time and the credible threat of fighting over every inch of ground), otherwise.

This is basically a symbolic jesture with no significant impact whatsoever so I don't mind it at all. It was noted by one national writer and is over a period of time where there isn't a ton going on. They missed Peach Jam but Norm Roberts was still there recruiting for KU and Roberts is an excellent recruiter with great rapport with recruits so really, this is a lot of nothing .

The problem is exactly that it is symbolic; the one threat you had was that you would fight for every inch of ground on this. Voluntarily taking an appeasement/collaboration path cuts directly against credibility on that.

I think KU and Self look better if they accept at least some responsibility (like they appear to be doing now) for what was going on rather than the "deny deny deny" strategy like they're on trial for a murder. It's pretty obvious to anyone without their head in the sand what was going on.

Isn't that the NCAA's case in all of this? "Hey, we can't prove it, so you'll just have to believe our word that it's happening. It's obvious." There's a reason this is going on year 5 now.

I don't think anyone with common sense, and off the record, is denying the role Self and Co. played in the allegations. The defense KU is taking is more so we agree this is happening, but it's happening all over the place. Why are you only picking a select few schools to try to punish for this illegal act that is "obviously" going on all over the place?

Big XII radio was just talking about this; said it was odd timing given the fact that KU had done such a good job from the get-go of fighting the NCAA and never admitting to anything.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:31 pm I think KU and Self look better if they accept at least some responsibility (like they appear to be doing now) for what was going on rather than the "deny deny deny" strategy like they're on trial for a murder. It's pretty obvious to anyone without their head in the sand what was going on.

Look better...to whom exactly? Why does it matter?

Ask Mizzou (or lots of other schools) what self-reporting does for you. The "booster" switcheroo is a thing that happened, to us, here. So, too, is the NCAA using testimony given in an unrelated federal criminal trial as evidence.

Fuck 'em, fuck cooperating with 'em.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:21 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:19 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:43 am

We just see this differently I guess. Ask Mizzou what value proactiveness has anymore (if it ever had much to begin with).

I really do not think we would start cooperating now, absent something changing in the case (good or bad). From a litigation strategy standpoint, which is very much the right lens here, you would not give up the two best things you have (time and the credible threat of fighting over every inch of ground), otherwise.

This is basically a symbolic jesture with no significant impact whatsoever so I don't mind it at all. It was noted by one national writer and is over a period of time where there isn't a ton going on. They missed Peach Jam but Norm Roberts was still there recruiting for KU and Roberts is an excellent recruiter with great rapport with recruits so really, this is a lot of nothing .

The problem is exactly that it is symbolic; the one threat you had was that you would fight for every inch of ground on this. Voluntarily taking an appeasement/collaboration path cuts directly against credibility on that.

I don't think this changes that at all. If this IARP committee drops the hammer on KU, this will go to court just as it would have if KU hadn't held Self and KT out of Peach Jam.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:29 pm So, too, is the NCAA using testimony NOT given in an unrelated federal criminal trial as evidence.

Fuck 'em, fuck cooperating with 'em.

FYP. The levels of ridiculousness are many.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:43 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:21 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:19 am

This is basically a symbolic jesture with no significant impact whatsoever so I don't mind it at all. It was noted by one national writer and is over a period of time where there isn't a ton going on. They missed Peach Jam but Norm Roberts was still there recruiting for KU and Roberts is an excellent recruiter with great rapport with recruits so really, this is a lot of nothing .

The problem is exactly that it is symbolic; the one threat you had was that you would fight for every inch of ground on this. Voluntarily taking an appeasement/collaboration path cuts directly against credibility on that.

I don't think this changes that at all. If this IARP committee drops the hammer on KU, this will go to court just as it would have if KU hadn't held Self and KT out of Peach Jam.

I think what jfish is trying to say is that there is no longer a hammer to drop if KU and the NCAA broker a deal. From a legal strategy point, it just makes little sense for KU to give an inch if the big hammer is still on the table after fighting every single thing thus far. Big hammer being: show-cause, multiyear Self suspension, Final Four banner removal, postseason bans.

Whatever it ends up being or meaning, this is by far the most significant development in the case since the charges were announced and KU filed its blistering Answer.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:38 pm

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:43 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:21 pm

The problem is exactly that it is symbolic; the one threat you had was that you would fight for every inch of ground on this. Voluntarily taking an appeasement/collaboration path cuts directly against credibility on that.

I don't think this changes that at all. If this IARP committee drops the hammer on KU, this will go to court just as it would have if KU hadn't held Self and KT out of Peach Jam.

I think what jfish is trying to say is that there is no longer a hammer to drop if KU and the NCAA broker a deal. From a legal strategy point, it just makes little sense for KU to give an inch if the big hammer is still on the table after fighting every single thing thus far. Big hammer being: show-cause, multiyear Self suspension, Final Four banner removal, postseason bans.

Whatever it ends up being or meaning, this is by far the most significant development in the case since the charges were announced and KU filed its blistering Answer.

Right. Has nothing to do with a court or judge.* Everything to do with negotiation leverage.

* KU would do BACKFLIPS if it could get all this in front of a real court/judge.

Selective enforcement is a good case to fight.

nu_bronco wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:56 pm This go here or somewhere else? I think it fits with this conversation even though it is talking about football players.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/s ... g-benefits

it goes here. its baffling that amateurism rules exist at all, in the context of the prior few pages of this discussion.