Kansas Crimson

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:32 am**

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:25 am
jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:47 am Someone who thinks that way has fallen - hook, line and sinker - for the right's false equivalency.
Nah fam.

Go into a little more detail?

Because, in my opinion, if the sole (or even primary) reason one would vote for Trump over Biden (but would support a different D over Trump) is Biden's age...yes, I think one is deeply, deeply lost in the right's tricks.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:34 am**

I don't think he has his wits about him. We get to see the best that he has to offer in pockets - I can't imagine the lapses he has when the cameras aren't on him. He's not healthy. I don't know if he can make another 4 years. That shouldn't be our only choice as President. I personally think it's a travesty that it is. It is mostly this.

I also don't think he's doing the best of job on the border. I don't have the answers ( as it's not my profession and I'm not perhaps the most important person in the world ) but it's not working at the moment. And let's not cancel student debt - just stop with that.

If he wasn't clearly struggling to process his thoughts and stumbling over word after word ( and he didn't used to -- so it's tied to his age ) then I would very much consider voting for him again.

I don't think it's right wing propaganda. I don't watch Fox News. I don't scour Twitter. I try to tune in every time he addresses the public. I've seen enough from all the social channels/media channels ( that aren't right wing leaning i promise! ) to realize he's old as fuck and his age is affecting his mental and physical state.

The United States is full of charismatic, intelligent, talented people, who aren't past the average US life expectancy. We need to do better. My non vote is a protest to show we need to do better.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:38 am**

Taking all that to be true, though, Trump is even worse off, in even more cherry-picked (limited, curated and consequence-free) exposures.

That's what I'm saying here.

If the sole (or primary) reason one would pick Trump over Biden is Biden's age (or capacity), one has fallen prey to a false premise.

(And much more importantly: a literal Weekend at Bernie's situation would be SIGNFICANTLY less dangerous for the United States than what Trump is telling you OUT LOUD that he will do.)

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:40 am**

I'm not voting for Trump ( who is just as old and sickly physically and a fucking lunatic even without any degradation of mental capacity due to age ).

I'm not voting for either.
I'll either A. leave that part of the ballot empty B. write in Jon Stewart or C. write in myself.

"one would vote for a non-Biden D over Trump (but not Biden, due to his age)..."

I would.
I'm not falling into any sort of Republican trap.
I don't like either candidate and don't think either is even close to the United States' best people.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:45 am**

C. the candidate we want.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:49 am**

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:40 am I'm not voting for Trump ( who is just as old and sickly physically and a fucking lunatic even without any degradation of mental capacity due to age ).

I'm not voting for either.
I'll either A. leave that part of the ballot empty B. write in Jon Stewart or C. write in myself.

"one would vote for a non-Biden D over Trump (but not Biden, due to his age)..."

I would.
I'm not falling into any sort of Republican trap.
I don't like either candidate and don't think either is even close to the United States' best people.

Ok. I still think that protest votes ain't it here. Not when one of the candidates is explicitly running on an authoritarian, anti-democratic platform.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:49 am**

First on the agenda, getting money out of college basketball, threatening to stop subsidizing the NBA unless they lower the draft age to 18, and giving as many tax breaks and incentives as possible to build up the GLeague.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:12 am**

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:49 am
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:40 am I'm not voting for Trump ( who is just as old and sickly physically and a fucking lunatic even without any degradation of mental capacity due to age ).

I'm not voting for either.
I'll either A. leave that part of the ballot empty B. write in Jon Stewart or C. write in myself.

"one would vote for a non-Biden D over Trump (but not Biden, due to his age)..."

I would.
I'm not falling into any sort of Republican trap.
I don't like either candidate and don't think either is even close to the United States' best people.
Ok. I still think that protest votes ain't it here. Not when one of the candidates is explicitly running on an authoritarian, anti-democratic platform.

normally i’d agree with pdub, but this and the last election have the potential one side to be incredibly damning to our democracy (not just the things i personally care about, but our actual democracy)

imo, this isn’t the time for protest non-votes

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:24 am**

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:34 am**

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:49 am First on the agenda, getting money out of college basketball, threatening to stop subsidizing the NBA unless they lower the draft age to 18, and giving as many tax breaks and incentives as possible to build up the GLeague.

You're getting to my point.

Candidate A is not opposed to money in college basketball. In fact, he supports allowing direct payments by conferences and schools. You have genuine and reasonable and good-faith problems with Candidate A on this issue, which issue is very important to you.

Candidate B tells you he'd get all of the money out of college basketball (although he has made, and not followed through on, pie-in-the-sky promises before). But he ALSO tells you, out loud, that all baskets for Kentucky and Duke and North Carolina will count for 2x points, and that refs will be chosen for historical support of Kentucky and Duke and North Carolina.

So.

You have a material problem with Candidate A; you are (genuinely and reasonably and in good faith) concerned that Candidate A will move college basketball incrementally further in what you consider to be the wrong direction. But Candidate B would turn college basketball into pro wrestling.

I don't think this is complicated.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:45 am**

I'm candidate C.
I don't think you're following.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:59 am**

Shirley wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:25 am
DeletedUser wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:17 am If my 2 choices are Biden or Trump then decent chance I don't bother to vote this year. I will not vote for Trump under any circumstances. I would only vote for Biden if I thought it would matter, and in Illinois it doesn't.

What a pathetic duo of candidates. Such a low bar.
What, specifically, is your problem with Biden?

It'd be quicker to list things I like about him...

I like his experience. I like that he's willing to listen to others. I like that he won't try to undermine the election if he isn't going to win.

I'll try to think of a few more....

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:01 pm**

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:34 am I don't think he has his wits about him. We get to see the best that he has to offer in pockets - I can't imagine the lapses he has when the cameras aren't on him. He's not healthy. I don't know if he can make another 4 years. That shouldn't be our only choice as President. I personally think it's a travesty that it is. It is mostly this.

I also don't think he's doing the best of job on the border. I don't have the answers ( as it's not my profession and I'm not perhaps the most important person in the world ) but it's not working at the moment. And let's not cancel student debt - just stop with that.

If he wasn't clearly struggling to process his thoughts and stumbling over word after word ( and he didn't used to -- so it's tied to his age ) then I would very much consider voting for him again.

I don't think it's right wing propaganda. I don't watch Fox News. I don't scour Twitter. I try to tune in every time he addresses the public. I've seen enough from all the social channels/media channels ( that aren't right wing leaning i promise! ) to realize he's old as fuck and his age is affecting his mental and physical state.

The United States is full of charismatic, intelligent, talented people, who aren't past the average US life expectancy. We need to do better. My non vote is a protest to show we need to do better.

This.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 pm**

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:45 am I'm candidate C.
I don't think you're following.

Ok. And we've talked about this before. In my opinion, ANY vote that is not for dime-store-Hitler's true opponent - whether or not the vote would have any chance of being outcome-determinative - implies at least SOME degree of tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism.*

You don't see it that way. Fine, of course that's your prerogative.

But in my opinion, the stakes here are far too high for anyone opposed to Candidate B to do anything that is one gram less than a complete and total rebuke of Candidate B and what he represents.

Because, again, this isn't (to me) a matter of policy preference. It's something much more fundamental to our character as a nation.

* You can SEE this in Trump's own framing of 2020. The inverse of his 2020 framing ("Most votes of any incumbent President ever!") would be, inevitably, saying that Biden (should Biden win 2024) is illegitimate and without mandate if Biden gets any fewer votes in 2024 than he did in 2020. In fact, we all know he'd use this fact - this good faith "protest" dissent by people whose vote "doesn't matter" - to claim that 2020 was clearly fraudulent.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:42 pm**

I seriously hope to fuck that ONE of the parties could produce a better candidate.
But, I would vote for anyone that is opposing Trump.

I cannot understand how a sane, rational person could think that Trump is a viable option.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:08 pm**

jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 pm
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:45 am I'm candidate C.
I don't think you're following.
Ok. And we've talked about this before. In my opinion, ANY vote that is not for dime-store-Hitler's true opponent - whether or not the vote would have any chance of being outcome-determinative - implies at least SOME degree of tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism.*

I don't value this absolutist extremist opinion on someone not voting at all.
It's very close to what, a false dichotomy fallacy?
Or is it an equivocal fallacy?

It's one of 'dem fallacies.
And it's worthless.
( it's very similar to - hey, if you don't want college players getting paid, well, you're racist and support slavery - it's very JFish at his most pretentious )

There is absolutely NO degree of tolerance for authoritarianism.
Again, it's like getting an option for a dinner party for dry chicken or burnt to a crisp steak.
Dry chicken would be better but I don't want either. Because I chose neither does not mean I like burnt to a crisp steak. I look at the options and go, both suck, and as protest, i'm not choosing either.

I want a better system.
This is one of my ways ( albeit small but JUST AS SMALL AS ONE INDIVIDUAL VOTE FOR ONE OF THE TWO SHITTY CANDIDATES IN A STATE ) of stating so.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:18 pm**

RFK Jr is here to help!

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:32 pm**

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:08 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 pm
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:45 am I'm candidate C.
I don't think you're following.
Ok. And we've talked about this before. In my opinion, ANY vote that is not for dime-store-Hitler's true opponent - whether or not the vote would have any chance of being outcome-determinative - implies at least SOME degree of tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism.*

I don't value this absolutist extremist opinion on someone not voting at all.
It's very close to what, a false dichotomy fallacy?
Or is it an equivocal fallacy?

It's one of 'dem fallacies.
And it's worthless.
( it's very similar to - hey, if you don't want college players getting paid, well, you're racist and support slavery - it's very JFish at his most pretentious )

There is absolutely NO degree of tolerance for authoritarianism.
Again, it's like getting an option for a dinner party for dry chicken or burnt to a crisp steak.
Dry chicken would be better but I don't want either. Because I chose neither does not mean I like burnt to a crisp steak. I look at the options and go, both suck, and as protest, i'm not choosing either.

I want a better system.
This is one of my ways ( albeit small but JUST AS SMALL AS ONE INDIVIDUAL VOTE FOR ONE OF THE TWO SHITTY CANDIDATES IN A STATE ) of stating so.

But you're looking at this like you're the star of the show. You're not. Nor is any of us.

I believe you when you say YOU have no degree of tolerance for authoritarianism.

But you can bet your ass that the authoritarians will point to ANY vote that is not FOR Biden, as being a vote FOR authoritarianism. And, in my opinion, the stakes are far too high for doing less than fully, completely and absolutely rebuking Trump. And, in my opinion, declining to vote, or making a protest vote, simply falls short.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:39 pm**

Authoritarians doing authoritarian things does not equate to my having "tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism." Which is what you said in your post just a bit ago.

And no, i'm not the star of the show.
I'm not looking at it like that.
I'm looking at it as not participating in a broken system.

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:52 pm**

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:08 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 pm
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:45 am I'm candidate C.
I don't think you're following.
Ok. And we've talked about this before. In my opinion, ANY vote that is not for dime-store-Hitler's true opponent - whether or not the vote would have any chance of being outcome-determinative - implies at least SOME degree of tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism.*

I don't value this absolutist extremist opinion on someone not voting at all.
It's very close to what, a false dichotomy fallacy?
Or is it an equivocal fallacy?

It's one of 'dem fallacies.
And it's worthless.
( it's very similar to - hey, if you don't want college players getting paid, well, you're racist and support slavery - it's very JFish at his most pretentious )

There is absolutely NO degree of tolerance for authoritarianism.
Again, it's like getting an option for a dinner party for dry chicken or burnt to a crisp steak.
Dry chicken would be better but I don't want either. Because I chose neither does not mean I like burnt to a crisp steak. I look at the options and go, both suck, and as protest, i'm not choosing either.

I want a better system.
This is one of my ways ( albeit small but JUST AS SMALL AS ONE INDIVIDUAL VOTE FOR ONE OF THE TWO SHITTY CANDIDATES IN A STATE ) of stating so.

I agree with all of your reasoning and logic. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that a non-vote doesn't state anything other than that you're not that bothered by the possibility of Trump becoming President from a purely practical matter, which when you're counting votes and assigning delegates to award states towards an electoral college count is the only point that matters.

We aren't choosing between a one-time meal of either dry chicken or burnt steak. We're choosing between four straight years of breakfast, lunch and dinner consisting of either dry chicken or a bowl of fresh cow manure. I feel some sort of personal responsibility to not make the rest of the world eat cow shit for every meal, even if dry chicken is going to suck.

After next November, the Dems are guaranteed to roll someone out there who isn't Biden. Does that mean your statement was received and heard? Nope.

Kansas Crimson

Uncle Joe

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