Kansas Crimson

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:55 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:51 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:45 am Long talks as punishment is partly a reason why history keeps repeating itself on this issue.

Suspend that law partner a week for calling that associate a derogatory term, he'll get the message. Have the shift manager talk to HR for grabbing the cashier's ass. Maybe a little therapy for that pedo gymnastics trainer, he'll stop. It's just over and over and over. At what point can everyone just attack the bad behavior as completely unacceptable and unwelcome?

And now, young millenials/Gen Z are over it. An age group that Carl Nassib belongs to. They're not going to work in that environment.

100% agreed. BS consequences are the same as no consequences and once it is shown that there are no real consequences, the behaviors just continue.

We can't just sit around waiting for a generation of knuckledraggers to die off while they train the next generation that it's actually still "not that big a deal" to be a knuckledragger.

The consequences for Gruden after 7 years of documented offensive emails? ~$5m/year extensions from Disney and a 10 year $100 million contract in the NFL. The two companies involved in the email communications!

Yep. Poor Gruden. I hope he recovers from this tragic assault on his imaginary rights to privacy.

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:57 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:55 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:51 am

100% agreed. BS consequences are the same as no consequences and once it is shown that there are no real consequences, the behaviors just continue.

We can't just sit around waiting for a generation of knuckledraggers to die off while they train the next generation that it's actually still "not that big a deal" to be a knuckledragger.

The consequences for Gruden after 7 years of documented offensive emails? ~$5m/year extensions from Disney and a 10 year $100 million contract in the NFL. The two companies involved in the email communications!

Yep. Poor Gruden. I hope he recovers from this tragic assault on his imaginary rights to privacy.

NFL deserves some heat for this too. For years they knew it was going on, knew it was wrong, and ignore it.

Now they send the emails to the Raiders hinting that the Raiders need to handle it to keep the NFL's hands off of any punishment.

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:57 am

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:55 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:51 am

100% agreed. BS consequences are the same as no consequences and once it is shown that there are no real consequences, the behaviors just continue.

We can't just sit around waiting for a generation of knuckledraggers to die off while they train the next generation that it's actually still "not that big a deal" to be a knuckledragger.

The consequences for Gruden after 7 years of documented offensive emails? ~$5m/year extensions from Disney and a 10 year $100 million contract in the NFL. The two companies involved in the email communications!

Yep. Poor Gruden. I hope he recovers from this tragic assault on his imaginary rights to privacy.

Have to imagine Hugh Freeze's ass is getting hot. Going to be a heck of a battle between Gruden and Meyer for the Liberty gig.

Seems like the issue has nothing to do with the behavior itself and everything to do with the optics of it becoming public.

The employers deserve just as much heat as Gruden imo. They didn't give a shit about his pattern of behavior until it leaked....and these are emails, i am sure what comes out of his mouth in person is worse.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:08 am Seems like the issue has nothing to do with the behavior itself and everything to do with the optics of it becoming public.

The employers deserve just as much heat as Gruden imo. They didn't give a shit about his pattern of behavior until it leaked....and these are emails, i am sure what comes out of his mouth in person is worse.

Few employers are going to get called out for not actively monitoring the content of employee's emails and calling them to task for said content unless it is criminal or unsafe in nature.

People seem to have a better feel for "private" vs. "not private" when they speak vs. when they send emails. As you can see here, some people have an inaccurate vision of the privacy of emails.

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:11 am

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:08 am Seems like the issue has nothing to do with the behavior itself and everything to do with the optics of it becoming public.

The employers deserve just as much heat as Gruden imo. They didn't give a shit about his pattern of behavior until it leaked....and these are emails, i am sure what comes out of his mouth in person is worse.

Few employers are going to get called out for not actively monitoring the content of employee's emails and calling them to task for said content unless it is criminal or unsafe in nature.

People seem to have a better feel for "private" vs. "not private" when they speak vs. when they send emails. As you can see here, some people have an inaccurate vision of the privacy of emails.

No. I just have a differing opinion.
I am not disputing what is actually happening right now - and the current level of privacy of emails.
Gruden is being fired for emails he sent several years ago. That is a fact.

I think there should be a protection on private conversations - phone calls you don't know are being recorded/emails sent to individuals. This does not make me a defender of racism as I'm going to assume will be the common play here. This is in general for all conversation. If you emailed your credit card number to someone, and there was an investigation, I don't think those credit card numbers should become public.

wut.

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:11 am

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:08 am Seems like the issue has nothing to do with the behavior itself and everything to do with the optics of it becoming public.

The employers deserve just as much heat as Gruden imo. They didn't give a shit about his pattern of behavior until it leaked....and these are emails, i am sure what comes out of his mouth in person is worse.

Few employers are going to get called out for not actively monitoring the content of employee's emails and calling them to task for said content unless it is criminal or unsafe in nature.

People seem to have a better feel for "private" vs. "not private" when they speak vs. when they send emails. As you can see here, some people have an inaccurate vision of the privacy of emails.

While I don't think anyone can reasonably expect privacy in their work emails, the fact is that someone in a high-profile, public role should conduct himself via email as if every single email will become public. Same concept as what I'm sure Gruden was told 2,500 times: assume every mic is hot.

These were very well-established principles when he sent these emails. The emails are what he was when he sent the emails. What he said in the emails was highly offensive and deeply objectionable when he sent these emails.

This generally is in line with my values of the protection of speech, knowing full well that the constitution doesn't necessarily apply but in a corporate world where things have gotten technologically driven at full speed, that there needs to be consideration for mediums in which an individual can express themselves privately without repercussion or fear from societal norms.

Read that statement without your own bias.
This is not applying just to the things you may be assuming I am pushing for.

There can't be a single time I have ever heard anyone recommend that an employee use their work email with an expectation that they have carte blanche with the subject matter.

I read that Gruden was using his personal account.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:33 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:11 am

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:08 am Seems like the issue has nothing to do with the behavior itself and everything to do with the optics of it becoming public.

The employers deserve just as much heat as Gruden imo. They didn't give a shit about his pattern of behavior until it leaked....and these are emails, i am sure what comes out of his mouth in person is worse.

Few employers are going to get called out for not actively monitoring the content of employee's emails and calling them to task for said content unless it is criminal or unsafe in nature.

People seem to have a better feel for "private" vs. "not private" when they speak vs. when they send emails. As you can see here, some people have an inaccurate vision of the privacy of emails.

No. I just have a differing opinion.
I am not disputing what is actually happening right now - and the current level of privacy of emails.
Gruden is being fired for emails he sent several years ago. That is a fact.

I think there should be a protection on private conversations - phone calls you don't know are being recorded/emails sent to individuals. This does not make me a defender of racism as I'm going to assume will be the common play here. This is in general for all conversation. If you emailed your credit card number to someone, and there was an investigation, I don't think those credit card numbers should become public.

You're getting very hung up on the medium in which Gruden revealed himself to be a racist homophobe (in addition to an idiot), as opposed to the fact of Gruden being a racist homophobe (in addition to an idiot).

Is it possible that he has changed since then? Sure, I guess.

But this isn't about him getting into heaven, or like going to jail or something, or even about whether he deserves to be fired/outcast/shunned from public life etc. It's about whether the Raiders can justify paying this dude $10mm/year to be the public face of the franchise when, as recently as 2018, he was a racist homophobe (in addition to being an idiot).

I need a safe space to say racist shit, maybe I should email it to a bunch of high ranking public figures on their company domains.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:44 am I read that Gruden was using his personal account.

I don't think so, but that's not better anyway! Hiding your racist, homophobic side doesn't make that side of you any less ugly.

people are just dumb

why leave any sort of digital trail? though, i doubt gruden actually thought anything he was doing was all that inappropriate. he’s always come off as a bit of a dick

TraditionKU wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:48 am people are just dumb

why leave any sort of digital trail? though, i doubt gruden actually thought anything he was doing was all that inappropriate. he’s always come off as a bit of a dick

Arrogance, and the fact that he got away with it for decades.

Plus, his audience was always a combination of people that agreed with him or wanted to just look the other way.

"In many of the emails in question, Gruden corresponds with former Washington team president Bruce Allen, among others. Gruden and Allen worked together in Gruden's first stint as Raiders coach and with the Buccaneers. The emails occurred when Gruden was working at ESPN. Gruden used his personal email account, while Allen used his team account."

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:52 am "In many of the emails in question, Gruden corresponds with former Washington team president Bruce Allen, among others. Gruden and Allen worked together in Gruden's first stint as Raiders coach and with the Buccaneers. The emails occurred when Gruden was working at ESPN. Gruden used his personal email account, while Allen used his team account."

This isn't better!

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that he said ugly things.
I'm just disagreeing with the use of ( what I think - I repeat - what I think, not what is currently ) a private conversation to then fire ( instead of asking the players/staff who they think Gruden is as a person, now, and whether this was forgivable -- and if they did that, and the answer was no, then I don't disagree with his firing ) him.

Look to Dakota Loomis ( a dude I knew of in high school ) for an example of what I am against.
I'm not arguing what happened -- but arguing that I don't think it should have happened.

pdub wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:33 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:11 am

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:08 am Seems like the issue has nothing to do with the behavior itself and everything to do with the optics of it becoming public.

The employers deserve just as much heat as Gruden imo. They didn't give a shit about his pattern of behavior until it leaked....and these are emails, i am sure what comes out of his mouth in person is worse.

Few employers are going to get called out for not actively monitoring the content of employee's emails and calling them to task for said content unless it is criminal or unsafe in nature.

People seem to have a better feel for "private" vs. "not private" when they speak vs. when they send emails. As you can see here, some people have an inaccurate vision of the privacy of emails.

No. I just have a differing opinion.
I am not disputing what is actually happening right now - and the current level of privacy of emails.
Gruden is being fired for emails he sent several years ago. That is a fact.

I think there should be a protection on private conversations - phone calls you don't know are being recorded/emails sent to individuals. This does not make me a defender of racism as I'm going to assume will be the common play here. This is in general for all conversation. If you emailed your credit card number to someone, and there was an investigation, I don't think those credit card numbers should become public.

Every single person who uses emails should assume that an email sent from a corporate account and/or to a corporate account is being scanned for certain content and archived for possible legal/HR reasons. Any organization that does not archive their employees emails is probably not going to be an organization for long.

I am sure there were millions of completely innocuous emails that contained such trivial items as a personal credit card numbers (which is ignorant to send to anyone in an unsecured email), schedules, pictures, etc... that were briefly scanned and then left alone. But when your investigation is into the good old boys club of misogynistic treatment of women at an organization, thousands of emails containing misogynistic content are going to send up some red flags. Gruden was just "unlucky" that his gross behavior was sent to someone at an organization that was so gross that they found themselves in the midst of a massive investigation. But I am fine with gross behavior having consequences for sure.