Kansas Crimson

We shot 5-25 from 3 in that Oregon game. We shot 40.5% from 3 for the season.
Oregon shot 11-25 - 6 more 3's. Oregon shot 37.8% from 3 for the season.
We lost by 14.

Gross.

The best players are multi-year guys.

But OADs don't preclude you from winning a title, what a dumb argument.

So how many schollies do we have with Charlie gone and Lawson most likely leaving? Do we even have any guys signed? Sorry haven't followed recruiting lately, but doesn't look like we have a single top 100 player yet....that's God awful.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:39 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:08 am LOL

Correlation vs causation

You've got to put the right pieces around OADs for success in march/april.

Teams full of Charlie Moores and KJ Lawsons don't make the final 4 either. Be careful what you wish for.

The list of teams nationwide that succeed in the tourney with OAD players is very short. Duke and Kentucky will be watching the Final Four being played by lower ranked recruits who stuck around for a few years.

Josh Jackson had the freaking National PoY around him and we still didn't make the Final Four.

The list of teams that succeed in the tourney is short period.

And ya, screw Josh for costing us our final four chances. We'd have been SOOOO much better off without that bum.

yeah Duke and Kentucky will be watching from home, but how many recent tournament wins - including Final Fours and Championships - have Duke and Kentucky enjoyed precisely because of One and Dones?

Winning happens by putting the best team with the best players on the court, regardless of what class.

That could be with a bunch of seniors, or a bunch of one and dones...though to be fair, you kinda have to win the OAD lottery to pull it off with as much.

and the only way to win the OAD lottery is to be a Nike school.

Worse players = better chance to win national titles.

Got it

shindig wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:37 am So how many schollies do we have with Charlie gone and Lawson most likely leaving? Do we even have any guys signed? Sorry haven't followed recruiting lately, but doesn't look like we have a single top 100 player yet....that's God awful.

Need one ( or two of ) Hurt, Precious, Stanley.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:52 am yeah Duke and Kentucky will be watching from home, but how many recent tournament wins - including Final Fours and Championships - have Duke and Kentucky enjoyed precisely because of One and Dones?

Winning happens by putting the best team with the best players on the court, regardless of what class.

That could be with a bunch of seniors, or a bunch of one and dones...though to be fair, you kinda have to win the OAD lottery to pull it off with as much.

and the only way to win the OAD lottery is to be a Nike school.

In the last decade UK and UNC have 1 title each. Same as us. Duke has 2. Nova has 2.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:43 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:39 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:08 am LOL

Correlation vs causation

You've got to put the right pieces around OADs for success in march/april.

Teams full of Charlie Moores and KJ Lawsons don't make the final 4 either. Be careful what you wish for.

The list of teams nationwide that succeed in the tourney with OAD players is very short. Duke and Kentucky will be watching the Final Four being played by lower ranked recruits who stuck around for a few years.

Josh Jackson had the freaking National PoY around him and we still didn't make the Final Four.

The list of teams that succeed in the tourney is short period.

And ya, screw Josh for costing us our final four chances. We'd have been SOOOO much better off without that bum.

Maybe. Maybe we would have had better results with an experienced junior or senior in that slot. Who knows. What I do know is that we are having much more negative results with Top 10 recruits than positive ones. Self's system (and just about every other elite D1 coach) just seems to work better with experienced players as opposed to OAD players.

We were in the final four last season. We have won 14 of the last 15 regular season conference championships. We have been in the final four 5 times in this 21st century. I am pretty content with our recruiting. I am pretty content with the program overall...…………...ncaa investigations aside.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:56 am

shindig wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:37 am So how many schollies do we have with Charlie gone and Lawson most likely leaving? Do we even have any guys signed? Sorry haven't followed recruiting lately, but doesn't look like we have a single top 100 player yet....that's God awful.

Need one ( or two of ) Hurt, Precious, Stanley.

Don't need one for Stanley, he's using a FB scholie.

TDub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:58 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:52 am yeah Duke and Kentucky will be watching from home, but how many recent tournament wins - including Final Fours and Championships - have Duke and Kentucky enjoyed precisely because of One and Dones?

Winning happens by putting the best team with the best players on the court, regardless of what class.

That could be with a bunch of seniors, or a bunch of one and dones...though to be fair, you kinda have to win the OAD lottery to pull it off with as much.

and the only way to win the OAD lottery is to be a Nike school.

In the last decade UK and UNC have 1 title each. Same as us. Duke has 2. Nova has 2.

It is...generous to say we have one in the last decade.

If we have one, then Carolina has two.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:45 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:43 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:39 am
The list of teams nationwide that succeed in the tourney with OAD players is very short. Duke and Kentucky will be watching the Final Four being played by lower ranked recruits who stuck around for a few years.

Josh Jackson had the freaking National PoY around him and we still didn't make the Final Four.

The list of teams that succeed in the tourney is short period.

And ya, screw Josh for costing us our final four chances. We'd have been SOOOO much better off without that bum.

Maybe. Maybe we would have had better results with an experienced junior or senior in that slot. Who knows. What I do know is that we are having much more negative results with Top 10 recruits than positive ones. Self's system (and just about every other elite D1 coach) just seems to work better with experienced players as opposed to OAD players.

Maybe.

We've had experienced teams not win it all too.

Josh was an obvious exception. He didn't play like a freshman, and he was surrounded by enough veterans that his inexperience was negated to a large extent.

I think winning Nattys with OADs is possible, but not sure Self is suited to coach a bunch of inexperienced OADs like K and Cal seem to be.

As always, it takes a combination of very good veterans and also OAD type (future NBA) players.

It's not like every junior or senior ends up being Frank Mason or Devonte Graham.

A lot of them end up like KJ Lawsons or Mitch Lightfoots. Give me a Josh Jackson over a Charlie Moore KJ Lawson caliber player every single day of the week.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:52 am yeah Duke and Kentucky will be watching from home, but how many recent tournament wins - including Final Fours and Championships - have Duke and Kentucky enjoyed precisely because of One and Dones?

Winning happens by putting the best team with the best players on the court, regardless of what class.

That could be with a bunch of seniors, or a bunch of one and dones...though to be fair, you kinda have to win the OAD lottery to pull it off with as much.

and the only way to win the OAD lottery is to be a Nike school.

In the 14 years prior to the OAD Rule, Duke had 5 Final Fours and 2 titles. In the 14 seasons since, Duke has 2 Final Fours and 2 titles.

It should be noted that if you bumped the "before OAD" timeframe for Duke from 14 years to 20 years, the numbers would jump to 10 Final Fours and 3 titles. So a Final Four every 2 years on average pre-OAD to a Final Four every 7 years with OAD.

Kentucky is not quite as skewed. 4 Final Fours and 1 title since OAD in 2006. And 4 Final Fours with 2 titles from 93-05 pre-OAD.

So the answer to your "yeah but how much success with OADs" seems also to be "not as much".

It doesn't seem that K and Cal's OAD teams win their respective conferences much.

That goes against Self's usual philosophy. He's pretty much in it to win it and sometimes his teams are worn down at the end and there isn't the development you'd like with the Frosh.

Self did a lot better job of that this season. The only problem with that philosophy is the Grimes didn't really deserve that treatment.

After Vick left, he didn't have much of a choice.
Garrett and Ochai ( after his initial breakout games ) couldn't shoot and we needed some kind of shooting.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:55 am Worse players = better chance to win national titles.

Got it

So the teams in the Final Four, none of whom are OAD players, are worse players than the players on the teams they just beat? OK.

Lower ranked recruits that stick around longer seem to develop into better players at the college level in the tourney than OAD players. That's my point. It's lazy to call them "worse players".

Did you not watch any of the fantastic games this weekend? Who was the best player? Carson Edwards, a senior who was ranked #91 in the Class of 2016, hit 10 freaking threes in one game. I'll take that "worse player" all day.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:32 am After Vick left, he didn't have much of a choice.
Garrett and Ochai ( after his initial breakout games ) couldn't shoot and we needed some kind of shooting.

I agree - did Grimes "deserve" to keep getting run out there to try to break out? No, I suppose not.

But the only chance this team had involved Grimes finding it.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:36 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:55 am Worse players = better chance to win national titles.

Got it

So the teams in the Final Four, none of whom are OAD players, are worse players than the players on the teams they just beat? OK.

Lower ranked recruits that stick around longer seem to develop into better players at the college level in the tourney than OAD players. That's my point. It's lazy to call them "worse players".

Did you not watch any of the fantastic games this weekend? Who was the best player? Carson Edwards, a senior who was ranked #91 in the Class of 2016, hit 10 freaking threes in one game. I'll take that "worse player" all day.

25% of the elite 8 was teams dominated by OAD players.

You're using the cut off of final 4 because it fits your argument. Most teams don't have OADs.

And then you're using Carson Edwards as an example, when it's much more likely he's the exception and not the rule. Not every junior or senior ends up being as good as Carson Edwards or Frank Mason or Devonte Graham.

Also, using tournament results to define which teams are better is a faulty method.

The best 4 teams aren't in the final 4. I feel safe assuming that if we replayed the tournament it's very possible we'd have 4 different teams in the final 4.