Kansas Crimson

KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:01 am anyone actually interested should look at the full details of russia’s MULTIPLE treaty drafts, with both NATO and just the US alone

Would you please be willing to give a synopsis?

And, how many treaty drafts has nato proposed?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:56 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:42 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:32 pm


now, regarding a peace deal and U.S. warmongering - I think one potential bargaining chip to get Putin to knock it off and leave may be for the U.S. to come out and say, "what if we agree to stop giving guns to the nazis on your doorstep?" Heck, there's even evidence to suggest if we quit giving guns to nazis sooner Putin would have never even bothered with the invasion!

This nonsense illustrates my point. When you START from a position of adopting Putin’s talking points, there’s no peace deal that can make sense.

You agree that Ukraine should not be required to give up one inch of its land as a predicate to, you know, getting Russia to stop shooting at Ukraine.

Why in the world would Ukraine agree to stop short of adequately preparing for the NEXT invasion? Which would be…the third since 2014?

Ukraine doesn’t owe Russia shit.

What happened here is that Russia BADLY miscalculated Ukraine’s willingness and ability - with the west’s help - to defend itself. But a “negotiated” peace that stops short of Ukraine being able to defend itself next time, is not peace at all.

So lemme just try to agree with you here.

I’d would be so pleased if Russia just take the L and goes home pronto, and Putin is tried and convicted of war crimes and spends the rest of his miserable life rotting in a cell.

So, then what?

Do you and I keep furnishing Ukraine with weapons? I’m guessing so, since you mention prepping in case of yet another future invasion.

And, as for the war-torn Ukraine - is nato also gonna help rebuild all that, just like we did with, say, Afghanistan?

Those are all interesting questions. But they do not get at whether or not there is presently a workable path to a peace deal. And there is not, if negotiations must start from the premise that Ukraine is somehow responsible for Russia attacking Ukraine (or, from the premise that the US somehow armed “nazis” on Russia’s doorstep).

Say you are interested in buying a piece of land from me. I say, sure, let’s negotiate. You say, without evidence, “ok, as you know the land you are trying to sell me is haunted by a ghost that will turn my dick neon purple as soon as I close the deal, so I don’t think your land is worth very much.”

I’m not negotiating with you!

Not because you’re weird, but because there isn’t a deal to be made where you anchor your offer in nonsense!

Revealed: Europe’s role in the making of Russia killer drones

Iranian kamikaze drones used in the latest attacks on Ukrainian cities are filled with European components, according to a secret document sent by Kyiv to its western allies in which it appeals for long-range missiles to attack production sites in Russia, Iran and Syria.
…
“Among the manufacturers are companies headquartered in the countries of the sanctions coalition: the United States, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Japan, and Poland,” it claims.
…
Among the suggestions for action by Ukraine’s western allies – at which they would probably baulk – are “missile strikes on the production plants of these UAVs in Iran, Syria, as well as on a potential production site in the Russian federation”.
The document goes on: “The above may be carried out by the Ukrainian defence forces if partners provide the necessary means of destruction.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ler-drones

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:57 pm

KUTradition wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:01 am anyone actually interested should look at the full details of russia’s MULTIPLE treaty drafts, with both NATO and just the US alone

Would you please be willing to give a synopsis?

And, how many treaty drafts has nato proposed?

check out the Brookings Institue and/or Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

(also, the paragraph immediately following the one you cherry-picked alludes to some of russia’s provisions)

how do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you don’t even attempt to educate yourself before spouting off?

wait, does anyone take me seriously?

frankly, I'm impressed you even read my link that far. I was otherwise getting the feeling everyone was summarily ignoring most of what I post here for the sake of preserving their own world views.

(for real didja read the one I just posted about Russia bombing Ukraine with drones with components made by the US and other western countries? And now they want us to bomb Iran and Syria about it?? and if we don't then Ukraine might go rogue and just bomb them anyway?! Holy fuck! And as if we haven't already bombed Syria enough! That entire story is such a clusterfuck!)

and to be honest, I DO try to educate myself.

so let's start with the paragraph immediately following the one I cherry-picked!

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

Now, I honestly hope this doesn't make your head explode, but...may I ask what your issue is with that?

now, lemme go look for those links you were so kind to refer me to but neglected to just share.

here's what I found when I searched "bookings institute Russia diplomacy:"

This maximalist intransigence is by no means limited to Ukraine. On December 17, 2021, the Kremlin sent two similar “draft treaties” to the White House and to NATO headquarters in Brussels which articulated the Kremlin’s goals for Europe with remarkable clarity.7 The demands in the proposals — which were immediately dismissed by their recipients — included not just a veto on Ukrainian membership in the alliance but a revision of the Euro-Atlantic security acquis of the post-Cold War period on enlargement, basing, deployments, exercises, and cooperation with partners. They would have severely limited U.S. freedom of movement in Europe (with no concomitant limitations on Russia), reversed 25 years of Central and Eastern European integration into NATO and the European Union, ended the right of non-members to choose their own alliances, and re-established a Russian sphere of influence on the continent.8 The coup de grâce was the final stipulation (Art. 7) of the draft U.S.-Russia treaty, that all nuclear weapons should be returned to their national territories: it would have meant the end of the U.S. nuclear umbrella over Europe and thus quite possibly of the alliance itself.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the- ... the-enemy/

I'm a fan of "draft treaties," at least over militancy*

I think that Ukrainian membership in NATO should be weighed for its pros and cons, with one con being some adults in the room among US government knew, and know, that's a good way to provoke Russia into military conflict. And I caution thinking of NATO membership as some team sport.

regarding the post-cold war period, where have we heard fish's "not one inch" rhetoric before?

I dunno what they mean by "u.s. freedom of movement in Europe," but I'm guessing it's militant freedom of movement? To that I say, self-determination lulz. And if Russia includes no concomitant limitation of their own, fuck that.

re: reversing 25 years of NATO, that's prob not as dumb as it sounds, considering NATO was always a military alliance to counter the Soviet Union, which is now been dissolved for...oh, like 25 years or so?

I dunno what they mean by ending the right of non-members to choose their own alliances.

re: re-establishing a Russian sphere of influence on the continent, that sounds gross

and, the coup de grace: heaven forbid the United States aka the only war pigs to ever actually drop nukes on anyone, no longer get to put nukes whereever they want.

Now, I know I know, most of that is Russian propaganda. Especially the part about criticizing Russia, right!

if I really have to yet again explain this - and let's face it, I do! - it's that I'm being critical of ALL warmongering, not just picking and choosing which warmongering is good and which is bad, like you guys somehow manage to do.




*oh yeah, speaking of draft treaties, asking again: How many has NATO proposed?

without you simply providing the Carnegie link, I'm not sure what particular article you meant to refer me to. But, after a little searching, I found this one, albeit from 2014:

There are two schools of thought that seek to explain Russia’s behavior.

For one school, Russian aggression is a reaction to the refusal by the United States to treat Russia as an equal power and to grant it an exclusive sphere of influence. According to this school, Russia never really gave up its imperialist mind-set―the view that Russia has the right to control its neighborhood in a world that Moscow perceives as multipolar and dominated by a small number of great powers. Having consolidated internally, Russia is now trying to rebuild a kind of Soviet Union lite. For two decades, Russia has been pushed around by an aggressive West; now, the country is on its feet again and is pushing back.

According to the second school of thought, Russia’s attack on Ukraine is defensive: the desperate move of a kleptocratic regime facing an existential threat, trying to keep democracy away from Russia and to regain legitimacy by rallying the population around a nationalist cause. In this view, the nightmare scenario for Russian President Vladimir Putin would be a color revolution in Russia like the popular uprisings of the early 2000s. By actively undermining democratic forces in neighboring post-Soviet countries, the Kremlin is building a buffer zone against Western influence.

There is evidence of both interpretations, and they do not contradict each other. Russia’s attack on Ukraine can be seen as an act of forward defense. If Ukraine became a successful liberal democracy with a market economy, living in harmony with the West, this would demonstrate that there is an alternative form of governance in a neighboring country that many Russians consider very similar to Russia. A liberal-democratic Ukraine would undermine Moscow’s claim to have the right to control its neighborhood as a sphere of influence.

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2014/12/09/eu ... ussia/hw8b

that first school of thought sounds like straight Putin propaganda, right? SO FUCKING WHAT if Russia has been pushed around by an aggressive west, it's up to them to just fucking deal with it! Right! Right? It's wholly inappropriate for them to push back! That privilege of aggression is reserved just for the west! I mean who does Russia think they are, us?!

the second school of thought is more confusing. Calling Russia pushing back "defensive" sounds like Russian propaganda, even though the comments go on to throw Russia under the bus about being so scared of democracy and free markets at their doorstep, which is definitely more western talking points.

now, even more confusing yet is why Russia wants to control is own neighborhood as a sphere of influence, when it's clearly Merica's own right to control Ukraine even though it's thousands of miles away. and NATO's own right even though Ukraine is nowhere near the North Atlantic.

ok, sorry, the last couple paragraphs were a little snarky. But, again, I'm struggling to reconcile the whole "who should get to impose their sphere of influence on Ukraine" with the ideal of "Ukraine should get the right to self-determination."

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:07 pm

Those are all interesting questions. But they do not get at whether or not there is presently a workable path to a peace deal. And there is not, if negotiations must start from the premise that Ukraine is somehow responsible for Russia attacking Ukraine (or, from the premise that the US somehow armed “nazis” on Russia’s doorstep).

Say you are interested in buying a piece of land from me. I say, sure, let’s negotiate. You say, without evidence, “ok, as you know the land you are trying to sell me is haunted by a ghost that will turn my dick neon purple as soon as I close the deal, so I don’t think your land is worth very much.”

I’m not negotiating with you!

Not because you’re weird, but because there isn’t a deal to be made where you anchor your offer in nonsense!

that's a hilarious analogy!

But, I'm not sure how it applies.

I think part of the appeal of getting Ukraine into NATO is the U.S. war machine totally could keep pumping the place full of weapons. This war has been a windfall for evil rich people in the west, as we've previously discussed in this thread, so why throw a biscuit on the tracks of the gravy train now?

as for a presently workable peace deal, that key word is in italics. As I've maintained all along, I think it's at least worth a try, and would be oh so thrilled to see some U.S. leadership finally act like a fucking adult in the room and try for as much. But instead, we're damn near 2 years in and still getting nothing more than "...no matter how long it takes!"

I don't wanna give Putin credit for a thing either, but I mean it just as an objective observation that as late as autumn 2021 he was apparently trying for diplomacy. I'm seriously concerned that the US and NATO have not even tried for any diplomacy at all. Or, if there IS any example of western attempts at diplomacy, please do point me to it - especially if Putin rejected it. It'll make it that much easier to hate him!

now, you finally mention nazis. but you phrase it as, "nazis," in quotations. Why's that?

Do you still have doubt that there's some critical mass of nazis in Ukraine? If so, what sort of evidence at this point might finally convince you? If not, and you don't doubt it, what moment finally did it for you?

and, one more thing I can't help but ask: the "P" word.

Do you still think it's Russian propaganda to suggest maybe NATO provoked Russia into this war?

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:18 pm that might require reading more than 140 characters at a time and most likely no emphatic emojis.

You're asking a lot.

dude, this shtick got old a long time ago

but I know you can't help yourself

I... don't think I want to know what happened here

oh, go figure.

mjl, for the sake of your grandparents, I implore you to think twice about supporting Ukraine, considering their president is literally giving standing ovations to SS nazis.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:53 pm

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:18 pm that might require reading more than 140 characters at a time and most likely no emphatic emojis.

You're asking a lot.

dude, this shtick got old a long time ago

but I know you can't help yourself

yknow what other schtick got really old a long time ago?

No?

Because you have absolutely fucking 0 self awareness.

oh don't worry bro, I at least have a little self awareness.

enough so to realize I'm being annoying in this thread.

but, know what else is annoying?

repeatedly being called pro-Putin.

as long as that keeps up, so will I.

I can't help but stand up for myself! Sorry, never been in this situation before! (the closest thing I can compare it to is when I finally voiced my skepticism on Catholicism). In this case, I really am that confident that "Stand With Ukraine" really is about as silly as "WMDs in Iraq." You guys are simping for nazis here.

L fucking O L

Putins Pirate sails again Ahoy! Arrrrr.

we've danced this dance....all of us. Either you can't read, refuse to read, are being intentionally obstinate, are a troll, or just aren't very smart.

I understand an anti war sentiment. Most honest, normal people dont want war (Ukraine doesn't want war...remember they didnt start it?)

But your logic is incredibly warped here.

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:10 pm L fucking O L

Putins Pirate sails again Ahoy! Arrrrr.

we've danced this dance....all of us. Either you can't read, refuse to read, are being intentionally obstinate, are a troll, or just aren't very smart.

I understand an anti war sentiment. Most honest, normal people dont want war (Ukraine doesn't want war...remember they didnt start it?)

But your logic is incredibly warped here.

fuck you, you miserable fucking nazi.

Tell your homeboy to go home, recognize established borders....boom, no war. yea?

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:13 pm Tell your homeboy to go home, recognize established borders....boom, no war. yea?

fuck you

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:13 pm

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:10 pm L fucking O L

Putins Pirate sails again Ahoy! Arrrrr.

we've danced this dance....all of us. Either you can't read, refuse to read, are being intentionally obstinate, are a troll, or just aren't very smart.

I understand an anti war sentiment. Most honest, normal people dont want war (Ukraine doesn't want war...remember they didnt start it?)

But your logic is incredibly warped here.

fuck you, you miserable fucking nazi.

Go fuck yourself.

Clean up on aisle Q.

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:15 pm

TDub wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:13 pm Tell your homeboy to go home, recognize established borders....boom, no war. yea?

fuck you

You disagree? Putin quits....recognizes borders, let's Ukrainian land be Ukrainian land. No war? Yea?

Am I wrong?