Kansas Crimson

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:25 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:45 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:43 am

The list of teams that succeed in the tourney is short period.

And ya, screw Josh for costing us our final four chances. We'd have been SOOOO much better off without that bum.

Maybe. Maybe we would have had better results with an experienced junior or senior in that slot. Who knows. What I do know is that we are having much more negative results with Top 10 recruits than positive ones. Self's system (and just about every other elite D1 coach) just seems to work better with experienced players as opposed to OAD players.

Maybe.

We've had experienced teams not win it all too.

Josh was an obvious exception. He didn't play like a freshman, and he was surrounded by enough veterans that his inexperience was negated to a large extent.

I think winning Nattys with OADs is possible, but not sure Self is suited to coach a bunch of inexperienced OADs like K and Cal seem to be.

As always, it takes a combination of very good veterans and also OAD type (future NBA) players.

It's not like every junior or senior ends up being Frank Mason or Devonte Graham.

A lot of them end up like KJ Lawsons or Mitch Lightfoots. Give me a Josh Jackson over a Charlie Moore KJ Lawson caliber player every single day of the week.

Josh Jackson, on the biggest stage of the season, looked exactly like a freshman in the first half of the game against Oregon. He was rattled by more experienced opponents and was a step late and subsequently spent most of the first half on the bench in foul trouble. He didn't score a single point until 11:28 left in the second half. By that time, Kansas was down 57-44 and it was basically over.

So no, his inexperience was not "negated by upper classmen".

This is the 2nd year in a row where the final four has been basically devoid of the oad.

I recall one of the larger arguments on dotnet was whether they would have rather a frosh Josh or a senior Selden.

Selden certainly shot his way out of big games before but it would have been interesting/exciting to have seen his senior year.

We've won 14 of 15 conference titles, a national championship, and 3 final 4s using Bill Selfs method of mixing OAD elite talent with quality experienced players.

I think we should probably stick to what's working instead of only recruiting players ranked outside the top 75 because Carson Edwards and Frank Mason ended up being really good.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:43 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:25 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:45 am
Maybe. Maybe we would have had better results with an experienced junior or senior in that slot. Who knows. What I do know is that we are having much more negative results with Top 10 recruits than positive ones. Self's system (and just about every other elite D1 coach) just seems to work better with experienced players as opposed to OAD players.

Maybe.

We've had experienced teams not win it all too.

Josh was an obvious exception. He didn't play like a freshman, and he was surrounded by enough veterans that his inexperience was negated to a large extent.

I think winning Nattys with OADs is possible, but not sure Self is suited to coach a bunch of inexperienced OADs like K and Cal seem to be.

As always, it takes a combination of very good veterans and also OAD type (future NBA) players.

It's not like every junior or senior ends up being Frank Mason or Devonte Graham.

A lot of them end up like KJ Lawsons or Mitch Lightfoots. Give me a Josh Jackson over a Charlie Moore KJ Lawson caliber player every single day of the week.

Josh Jackson, on the biggest stage of the season, looked exactly like a freshman in the first half of the game against Oregon. He was rattled by more experienced opponents and was a step late and subsequently spent most of the first half on the bench in foul trouble. He didn't score a single point until 11:28 left in the second half. By that time, Kansas was down 57-44 and it was basically over.

So no, his inexperience was not "negated by upper classmen".

LOL

I can find a lot of similar examples of juniors and seniors doing the exact same thing from our past teams.

You sound silly.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:45 am I recall one of the larger arguments on dotnet was whether they would have rather a frosh Josh or a senior Selden.

Selden certainly shot his way out of big games before but it would have been interesting/exciting to have seen his senior year.

I'd probably have preferred a senior Selden.

But I wouldn't have preferred a junior Mitch Lightfoot.

And Selden was on of those OAD guys who we shouldn't recruit because they make our team lose in the tournament.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:46 am We've won 14 of 15 conference titles, a national championship, and 3 final 4s using Bill Selfs method of mixing OAD elite talent with quality experienced players.

I think we should probably stick to what's working instead of only recruiting players ranked outside the top 75 because Carson Edwards and Frank Mason ended up being really good.

Generally, I'm happy with the formula Bill has sought to employ, which is to both develop 4*-types into studs, and also to recruit guys that have juice that can't be taught or developed.

You end up with more Tharpes than Masons when trying to only recruit players ranked 75+ (or whatever).

Thinking we can try to avoid having guys like Oubre or Grimes or Jackson altogether is just incorrect. It won't make us better over the long run.

Plenty of national champions have had OAD players. Just because it's a weird final 4 this year doesn't mean our method doesn't work. Check out the last times 3 of the 4 teams in this year's final four made it to a final four.....I think I'll stick with what's worked for us instead of trying to replicate what Auburn has done. Or Virginia. Or TT....or Purdue even though they didn't make it, but CARSON EDWARDS!

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:42 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:36 am

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:55 am Worse players = better chance to win national titles.

Got it

So the teams in the Final Four, none of whom are OAD players, are worse players than the players on the teams they just beat? OK.

Lower ranked recruits that stick around longer seem to develop into better players at the college level in the tourney than OAD players. That's my point. It's lazy to call them "worse players".

Did you not watch any of the fantastic games this weekend? Who was the best player? Carson Edwards, a senior who was ranked #91 in the Class of 2016, hit 10 freaking threes in one game. I'll take that "worse player" all day.

25% of the elite 8 was teams dominated by OAD players.

You're using the cut off of final 4 because it fits your argument. Most teams don't have OADs.

And then you're using Carson Edwards as an example, when it's much more likely he's the exception and not the rule. Not every junior or senior ends up being as good as Carson Edwards or Frank Mason or Devonte Graham.

Also, using tournament results to define which teams are better is a faulty method.

The best 4 teams aren't in the final 4. I feel safe assuming that if we replayed the tournament it's very possible we'd have 4 different teams in the final 4.

I am using the cutoff of the Final Four because we dont hang Elite Eight banners in AFH.

Edwards was the exception? Who was the best players for Michigan State?
Winston had 20. He is a junior ranked 29 in the class of 2016
Tillman had 19. He is a soph ranked 86 in the class of 2017.

Who was the best players for Auburn?
Bryce Brown had 24. He is a senior who was unranked in the class of 2015. UNRANKED.
Jared Harper had 26. He is a junior ranked 56 in the class of 2016.

Shall I go on listing out the "exceptions"?

Who were the best players for Texas Tech?
Jarrett Culver had 19. He is a soph and was unranked in the class of 2017.
Matt Mooney had 17. He is a senior and was so low ranked I can't even find him in the rivals database.

Who were the best players for Virginia?
Kyle Guy had 25. He is a junior who was ranked 43 in the class of 2016.
Ty Jerome had 24. He is a junior who was ranked 53 in the class of 2016.

Pretty fucking good performances from those "worse players".

If your goal is to be like K-State, recruit 4 year guys.

We really need to start recruiting more like Auburn and Purdue!

What's Self thinking!?!?!

Give Bill Self a team of seniors through sophomores who were ranked from 20-75 and what does he do? We saw it in 2008. Sign me up for that again, please.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:03 am We really need to start recruiting more like Auburn and Purdue!

What's Self thinking!?!?!

No, we really need to recruit like we used to.

Geezer wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:01 am If your goal is to be like K-State, recruit 4 year guys.

My goal is to see Kansas make Final Fours and win national titles. They seem to do that better with more experienced players.

Graham and Svi were 4 year guys. Did they make us more like Kansas State last year or did we beat a Duke team full of OAD talent and advance to a Final Four because of them?

LOL

Correlation vs causation.

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:06 am Give Bill Self a team of seniors through sophomores who were ranked from 20-75 and what does he do? We saw it in 2008. Sign me up for that again, please.

2 or 3 players from that team were expected to be OAD. (Rush, Arthur, maybe Sherron...he probably would have been better off if he left after year 1 honestly).

Everyone wants to win national titles. Only 1 team does it each year. It's been done in a variety of ways. We probably don't need to scrap what we've been doing. It's working pretty well.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:08 am LOL

Correlation vs causation.

We now have 14 years of data. How much more do you need?

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:09 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:06 am Give Bill Self a team of seniors through sophomores who were ranked from 20-75 and what does he do? We saw it in 2008. Sign me up for that again, please.

2 or 3 players from that team were expected to be OAD.

Everyone wants to win national titles. Only 1 team does it each year. It's been done in a variety of ways.

The OAD way doesn't seem to work for Bill Self coached teams. His system requires aggressive defenders that know the scheme, something you rarely get in freshmen.

I'm tired of the OAD type players. Most just don't pan out for KU for whatever reason and we don't seem to get the best OAD players anyway, not like UK or Duke. I just miss the days of when you knew what your team was going to be like the next year.

You're acting like Josh Jackon is the reason we lost to Oregon when here are some stats you ignored to paint your narrative

Mason 8/20fgs 2/8 from 3

Graham 0/7fgs 0/6 from 3

Landen Lucas 3 total rebounds.


We going to blame that solely on JJ because he was ranked too highly?