Kansas Crimson

Posted: **Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:43 pm**

well, if this isn't futile, then let's try to make the most of your illustration:

what do the apple in the box, and the coconut in the box, and the hand grenade in the box all have in common?

they ARE all in the box, right?

if we can apply this illustration to where you and I just haven't seen eye to eye here:

what does US warmongering in Afghanistan, and US warmongering in Iraq, and US warmongering in Ukraine, and US warmongering in Israel, and US warmongering in all those other...uh, countries about which most Americans couldn't care less, all have in common?

Posted: **Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:53 pm**

How drone warfare has transformed the battle between Ukraine and Russia

Posted: **Wed Dec 13, 2023 8:17 pm**

ousdahl wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:43 pm well, if this isn't futile, then let's try to make the most of your illustration:

what do the apple in the box, and the coconut in the box, and the hand grenade in the box all have in common?

they ARE all in the box, right?

if we can apply this illustration to where you and I just haven't seen eye to eye here:

what does US warmongering in Afghanistan, and US warmongering in Iraq, and US warmongering in Ukraine, and US warmongering in Israel, and US warmongering in all those other...uh, countries about which most Americans couldn't care less, all have in common?

I just think that, intentionally or not, you are starting from a false premise. I do not think it's accurate to say we are doing anything like "warmongering" in Ukraine or in Israel.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:47 am**

Okay, so where do you draw that line then - between what we’re doing in Ukraine and Israel (namely, years-long campaigns of supporting both places overwhelmingly with weapons of war), and “warmongering?”

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:42 am**

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:47 am Okay, so where do you draw that line then - between what we’re doing in Ukraine and Israel (namely, years-long campaigns of supporting both places overwhelmingly with weapons of war), and “warmongering?”

I might start with the definition of warmongering, which is "the act of encouraging a country to go to war or of threatening violence against another country."

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... rmongering

The only way one might credibly accuse us of warmongering vis a vis Ukraine would be if one somehow believed that Russia was justified in attacking Ukraine for the grave sin of...arming itself to defend against Russian attack.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:49 am**

I think your definition of warmongering applies very much to what we’re putting Ukraine in a situation to do.

we flood the place with weapons of war, and war happens.

To suggest otherwise is some stubborn stance along the lines of “but I just refuse to consider that the common denominator in the gun violence thread is guns.”

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:33 pm**

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:49 am I think your definition of warmongering applies very much to what we’re putting Ukraine in a situation to do.

we flood the place with weapons of war, and war happens.

To suggest otherwise is some stubborn stance along the lines of “but I just refuse to consider that the common denominator in the gun violence thread is guns.”

Like I said: The only way one might credibly accuse us of warmongering vis a vis Ukraine would be if one somehow believed that Russia was justified in attacking Ukraine for the grave sin of...arming itself to defend against Russian attack.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:36 pm**

grunt grunt, ug…snort, grunt grunt

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:44 pm**

Ukraine shouldn't have dressed itself up like a western leaning democracy. Had it coming thesis . . .

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:55 pm**

Sparko wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:44 pm Ukraine shouldn't have dressed itself up like a western leaning democracy. Had it coming thesis . . .

I also feel that a (undeniably-pro-Putin) narrative that we are somehow partially at fault here, for arming Ukraine's defense against Russian unilateral aggression, skips over some very relevant history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:49 pm**

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:55 pm
Sparko wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:44 pm Ukraine shouldn't have dressed itself up like a western leaning democracy. Had it coming thesis . . .
I also feel that a (undeniably-pro-Putin) narrative that we are somehow partially at fault here, for arming Ukraine's defense against Russian unilateral aggression, skips over some very relevant history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

“except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations."

lulz

But, good for you for finally considering a little historical context here! Keep digging!

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:51 pm**

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:49 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:55 pm
Sparko wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:44 pm Ukraine shouldn't have dressed itself up like a western leaning democracy. Had it coming thesis . . .
I also feel that a (undeniably-pro-Putin) narrative that we are somehow partially at fault here, for arming Ukraine's defense against Russian unilateral aggression, skips over some very relevant history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
“except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations."

lulz

But, good for you for finally considering a little historical context here! Keep digging!

What, ah, point are you trying to make? Are you saying that Russia's war on Ukraine is in fact in legitimate self-defense?

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:52 pm**

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:33 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:49 am I think your definition of warmongering applies very much to what we’re putting Ukraine in a situation to do.

we flood the place with weapons of war, and war happens.

To suggest otherwise is some stubborn stance along the lines of “but I just refuse to consider that the common denominator in the gun violence thread is guns.”
Like I said: The only way one might credibly accuse us of warmongering vis a vis Ukraine would be if one somehow believed that Russia was justified in attacking Ukraine for the grave sin of...arming itself to defend against Russian attack.

I don’t think Russia is justified. Once again, that’s you trying to put words into my mouth.

If anything, I think the current approach of piecemeal support for Ukraine is benefitting Russia. Putin IS fulfilling his goal of imperial expansion, after all.

That’s a big part of the reason why I think we desperately need to rethink our strategy here.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:52 pm**

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:51 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:49 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:55 pm

I also feel that a (undeniably-pro-Putin) narrative that we are somehow partially at fault here, for arming Ukraine's defense against Russian unilateral aggression, skips over some very relevant history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
“except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations."

lulz

But, good for you for finally considering a little historical context here! Keep digging!
What, ah, point are you trying to make? Are you saying that Russia's war on Ukraine is in fact in legitimate self-defense?

Again again, you’re trying to put words in my mouth.

I’m saying I think we should understand this in some objectively broader historical and geopolitical context.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:10 pm**

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:52 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:51 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:49 pm

“except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations."

lulz

But, good for you for finally considering a little historical context here! Keep digging!
What, ah, point are you trying to make? Are you saying that Russia's war on Ukraine is in fact in legitimate self-defense?
Again again, you’re trying to put words in my mouth.

I’m saying I think we should understand this in some objectively broader historical and geopolitical context.

Ok.

And the context is that Ukraine gave up deterrent weapons in exchange for a promise that Russia would not make war on Ukraine. A promise Russia of course has broken multiple times.

This is something the pro-Putin "Ukraine should negotiate for peace" idiots seem to gloss over.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:16 pm**

ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:52 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:33 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:49 am I think your definition of warmongering applies very much to what we’re putting Ukraine in a situation to do.

we flood the place with weapons of war, and war happens.

To suggest otherwise is some stubborn stance along the lines of “but I just refuse to consider that the common denominator in the gun violence thread is guns.”
Like I said: The only way one might credibly accuse us of warmongering vis a vis Ukraine would be if one somehow believed that Russia was justified in attacking Ukraine for the grave sin of...arming itself to defend against Russian attack.
I don’t think Russia is justified. Once again, that’s you trying to put words into my mouth.

If anything, I think the current approach of piecemeal support for Ukraine is benefitting Russia. Putin IS fulfilling his goal of imperial expansion, after all.

That’s a big part of the reason why I think we desperately need to rethink our strategy here.

These are words - uncut, unchanged - that came out of your mouth today:

I think your definition of warmongering applies very much to what we’re putting Ukraine in a situation to do.

we flood the place with weapons of war, and war happens.

To suggest otherwise is some stubborn stance along the lines of “but I just refuse to consider that the common denominator in the gun violence thread is guns.”

Do these words not mean that you think we, by arming Ukraine, are at least partially responsible for Russia attacking Ukraine?

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 4:18 pm**

Weirdly incoherent Ous argument.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 6:14 pm**

jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:16 pm
ousdahl wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:52 pm
jfish26 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:33 pm

Like I said: The only way one might credibly accuse us of warmongering vis a vis Ukraine would be if one somehow believed that Russia was justified in attacking Ukraine for the grave sin of...arming itself to defend against Russian attack.
I don’t think Russia is justified. Once again, that’s you trying to put words into my mouth.

If anything, I think the current approach of piecemeal support for Ukraine is benefitting Russia. Putin IS fulfilling his goal of imperial expansion, after all.

That’s a big part of the reason why I think we desperately need to rethink our strategy here.
These are words - uncut, unchanged - that came out of your mouth today:

I think your definition of warmongering applies very much to what we’re putting Ukraine in a situation to do.

we flood the place with weapons of war, and war happens.

To suggest otherwise is some stubborn stance along the lines of “but I just refuse to consider that the common denominator in the gun violence thread is guns.”
Do these words not mean that you think we, by arming Ukraine, are at least partially responsible for Russia attacking Ukraine?

Oh I absolutely think we are at least partially responsible for Russia attacking Ukraine.

The only way one could think otherwise is to, whether intentionally or not, completely ignore so much of the context of the situation - which, heads up, you and several others here appear to have done. But, again, we’ve been over that.

But to think we’re at least partially responsible for Russia invading Ukraine, is not to say I think Russia is justified in invading Ukraine. Again, we’ve been over that too.

Again again, this seems futile.

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 6:30 pm**

Lawmakers stuffed a provision into the Pentagon funding bill that makes it all but impossible for Trump to leave NATO

Congress has passed a sweeping law that could spell trouble for Trump if he wins in 2024.

Lawmakers included a provision in the $886 billion Pentagon funding bill that makes it all but impossible to leave NATO.

Trump has not said he would withdraw the US from NATO, but there are fears he could do so.

A brief provision in the massive $886 billion bill funding the Pentagon will likely kill former President Donald Trump or any potential future president's ambitions to withdraw the United States from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Sens. Tim Kaine, a Virginia Democrat, and Marco Rubio, a Florida Republican, teamed up to muscle their bill — which would require an act of Congress or Senate approval to leave NATO — into what is often deemed a must-pass bill that funds servicemembers and outlines national security priorities. President Joe Biden is expected to sign the legislation into law. The Senate passed the overall legislation 87 to 13. The House passed it on Friday on a 310-118 vote.

[...]

Posted: **Thu Dec 14, 2023 6:58 pm**

What about when we don't actually have a Senate or Congress?

Kansas Crimson

Let’s have a war!

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