Kansas Crimson

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:30 am If guns aren’t the problem, and people are, then why would you want those people to have guns?

No, not me.

Specifically, the two dudes trespassing while strapped about a mile away from me, causing the closest school to lock down.

Just another Friday in America.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:44 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:30 am If guns aren’t the problem, and people are, then why would you want those people to have guns?

No, not me.

Specifically, the two dudes trespassing while strapped about a mile away from me, causing the closest school to lock down.

Just another Friday in America.

are the authorities sure they aren’t just lost patriots (aka, good guys with guns)?

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:30 am If guns aren’t the problem, and people are, then why would you want those people to have guns?

Who are “those” people?

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:10 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:30 am If guns aren’t the problem, and people are, then why would you want those people to have guns?

Who are “those” people?

the ones who are supposedly the problem, rather than the guns

i thought that was obvious

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:33 am

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:10 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:30 am If guns aren’t the problem, and people are, then why would you want those people to have guns?

Who are “those” people?

the ones who are supposedly the problem, rather than the guns

i thought that was obvious

Now if the supposedly “problem” people could just be identified, whoever “they” are. It’s probably not the ordinary Joe/Jane.

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:35 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:33 am

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:10 am
Who are “those” people?

the ones who are supposedly the problem, rather than the guns

i thought that was obvious

Now if the supposedly “problem” people could just be identified, whoever “they” are. It’s probably not the ordinary Joe/Jane.

So...what you're saying is that there really is just a single, solitary thing that all mass shooters - every last one of them - have in common?

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:35 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:33 am

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:10 am
Who are “those” people?

the ones who are supposedly the problem, rather than the guns

i thought that was obvious

Now if the supposedly “problem” people could just be identified, whoever “they” are. It’s probably not the ordinary Joe/Jane.

but what to do in the absence of being able to identify those people ahead of time…

“common sense” regulations do exactly this - red flag laws (and the use/enforcement of them), background checks, purchase loopholes, waiting periods, licensure, etc., etc., etc…

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:07 am

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:35 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:33 am
the ones who are supposedly the problem, rather than the guns

i thought that was obvious

Now if the supposedly “problem” people could just be identified, whoever “they” are. It’s probably not the ordinary Joe/Jane.

So...what you're saying is that there really is just a single, solitary thing that all mass shooters - every last one of them - have in common?

On the contrary, he's saying you can't identify who "they" are, so we should have strict laws regulating the purchase of guns.






i could b rong

dolo trying (and failing) at “gotcha”

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:13 am dolo trying (and failing) at “gotcha”

Not many of their gotcha points stand up to interrogation well.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:11 am

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:35 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:33 am
the ones who are supposedly the problem, rather than the guns

i thought that was obvious

Now if the supposedly “problem” people could just be identified, whoever “they” are. It’s probably not the ordinary Joe/Jane.

but what to do in the absence of being able to identify those people ahead of time…

“common sense” regulations do exactly this - red flag laws (and the use/enforcement of them), background checks, purchase loopholes, waiting periods, licensure, etc., etc., etc…

Of course we do (broadly) this all the time, in every single walk of life.

You're required to pay a private company money in order to be permitted to buy and own a car; you're required to follow all sorts of rules that really don't, in very many specific instances, save lives (but, when everyone follows those rules, things are inarguably safer (although everyone accepts that it's not perfectly safe)); the system is set up for "riskier" people to have to pay more, or to have fewer privileges.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:07 am

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:35 am

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:33 am
the ones who are supposedly the problem, rather than the guns

i thought that was obvious

Now if the supposedly “problem” people could just be identified, whoever “they” are. It’s probably not the ordinary Joe/Jane.

So...what you're saying is that there really is just a single, solitary thing that all mass shooters - every last one of them - have in common?

Let me chime in here. I believe that people who commit murder be it a single murder or mass murder are mentally unbalanced. Too bad there is not more emphasis on treatment of mental illnesses. So to me mental illness is the common thread. People in their right mind do not commit mass murder. It’s illogical and nonproductive. The nut jobs will figure out a way to obtain a dangerous weapon regardless of any red flags, background checks, waiting periods etc…etc…. Not meant to be a “gotcha” post.

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:17 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:07 am

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:35 am
Now if the supposedly “problem” people could just be identified, whoever “they” are. It’s probably not the ordinary Joe/Jane.

So...what you're saying is that there really is just a single, solitary thing that all mass shooters - every last one of them - have in common?

Let me chime in here. I believe that people who commit murder be it a single murder or mass murder are mentally unbalanced. Too bad there is not more emphasis on treatment of mental illnesses. So to me mental illness is the common thread. People in their right mind do not commit mass murder. It’s illogical and nonproductive. The nut jobs will figure out a way to obtain a dangerous weapon regardless of any red flags, background checks, waiting periods etc…etc…. Not meant to be a “gotcha” post.

actually, for the majority of gun deaths (suicides), red flag laws and waiting periods would do wonders

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:17 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:07 am

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 10:35 am
Now if the supposedly “problem” people could just be identified, whoever “they” are. It’s probably not the ordinary Joe/Jane.

So...what you're saying is that there really is just a single, solitary thing that all mass shooters - every last one of them - have in common?

Let me chime in here. I believe that people who commit murder be it a single murder or mass murder are mentally unbalanced. Too bad there is not more emphasis on treatment of mental illnesses. So to me mental illness is the common thread. People in their right mind do not commit mass murder. It’s illogical and nonproductive. The nut jobs will figure out a way to obtain a dangerous weapon regardless of any red flags, background checks, waiting periods etc…etc…. Not meant to be a “gotcha” post.

Ok.

You won't find disagreement from me that we need to make high quality, comprehensive mental health services and other support services MUCH more readily (and cheaply) available, and destigmatized. But you might need to check with the pubs on their real commitment levels to these things - I do not think their actions are exactly in close step with their words.

And in any case: I do not at ALL agree that "criminals are resourceful" means we should simply give up on reducing the flow of guns - particularly hilariously unnecessary and extremely dangerous ones, like assault rifles - into our communities.

Part of it is basic economics (in the academic sense, not the financial sense). If guns are scarcer, they'll be more expensive. If they're more expensive, fewer "sick" people will obtain them. If fewer "sick" people obtain guns, there will be fewer mass shootings by "sick" people.

This is a numbers problem, not a "lol can't do anything about Exemplar X and Specific Situation Y and Exact Location Z" problem.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:58 pm

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:17 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:07 am

So...what you're saying is that there really is just a single, solitary thing that all mass shooters - every last one of them - have in common?

Let me chime in here. I believe that people who commit murder be it a single murder or mass murder are mentally unbalanced. Too bad there is not more emphasis on treatment of mental illnesses. So to me mental illness is the common thread. People in their right mind do not commit mass murder. It’s illogical and nonproductive. The nut jobs will figure out a way to obtain a dangerous weapon regardless of any red flags, background checks, waiting periods etc…etc…. Not meant to be a “gotcha” post.

actually, for the majority of gun deaths (suicides), red flag laws and waiting periods would do wonders

Exactly, I'm not sure that there's a ton of evidence that supports the notion that "Nut jobs will figure out a way...."

I mean, even putting one of those cable trigger locks on your gun, significantly reduces the likelihood of suicide.

For Mich's sake, I'm not an expert on the psychology of suicide vs murder. But, it seems to me that if a large portion of suicides are impulsive, that maybe some portion of murders and mass murders are also impulsive. And that maybe the easy access to guns makes them more likely.

I'm open to having my mind changed. But we say these kinds of things all the time without data. I'd like to see the evidence that mass murderers will do whatever it takes to get a gun, or that mass murderers would just use a different weapon if they didn't have access to guns. I mean, if that evidence is out there, then that might change the approach to how to deal with this problem.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 3:02 pm

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 2:17 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 11:07 am

So...what you're saying is that there really is just a single, solitary thing that all mass shooters - every last one of them - have in common?

Let me chime in here. I believe that people who commit murder be it a single murder or mass murder are mentally unbalanced. Too bad there is not more emphasis on treatment of mental illnesses. So to me mental illness is the common thread. People in their right mind do not commit mass murder. It’s illogical and nonproductive. The nut jobs will figure out a way to obtain a dangerous weapon regardless of any red flags, background checks, waiting periods etc…etc…. Not meant to be a “gotcha” post.

Ok.

You won't find disagreement from me that we need to make high quality, comprehensive mental health services and other support services MUCH more readily (and cheaply) available, and destigmatized. But you might need to check with the pubs on their real commitment levels to these things - I do not think their actions are exactly in close step with their words.

And in any case: I do not at ALL agree that "criminals are resourceful" means we should simply give up on reducing the flow of guns - particularly hilariously unnecessary and extremely dangerous ones, like assault rifles - into our communities.

Part of it is basic economics (in the academic sense, not the financial sense). If guns are scarcer, they'll be more expensive. If they're more expensive, fewer "sick" people will obtain them. If fewer "sick" people obtain guns, there will be fewer mass shootings by "sick" people.

This is a numbers problem, not a "lol can't do anything about Exemplar X and Specific Situation Y and Exact Location Z" problem.

GOP voters who automatically pivot to "it's a mental health issue" don't actually put any thought to the fact that 1) it would take billions of dollars of funds to build out our mental health system staffing to an adequate level 2) there would need to be major civil rights compromises made to require that any negative mental health situations be automatically fed into a database used to red flag gun purchases or 3) all of this assumes that the person with mental health issues WANT to get treated and can afford to get treated in order to trigger some sort of reg flag that prevents them from buying a gun.

It's an argument that is designed to fail because it provides no real, tangible path to success just like the majority of the GOP platform.

And yes, we have seen several cases where the plans of people who committed mass shootings had been held up by the fact that they needed to wait until they were able to legally purchase the weapons they wanted to use so the whole "they'll get their guns no matter what" argument is speculative BS with no hint of evidence that they are correct. Again, this isn't a "it's either 100% accurate or it's 0% accurate" situation. ANY potential shooter whose desires are thwarted by the difficulty of buying a weapon is a good thing. Maybe the delay is long enough and the red flag system is good enough that a resource can get to them in the window of opportunity and stop an attack before it happens.

https://www.nssbehavioralhealth.com/nss ... s-to-care/

Prioritizing mental health shouldn’t be a political issue. Unlike gun control.

dolomite wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 3:21 pm https://www.nssbehavioralhealth.com/nss ... s-to-care/

Prioritizing mental health shouldn’t be a political issue. Unlike gun control.

gun control shouldn’t be political either, but only those of a particular political persuasion seem to be the ones railroading any such reasonable control

at least 3 dead, two officers wounded, in shooting in Farmington, NM

So it comes down to mental illness. No one in their right mind would want to do a mass shooting. In a perfect world and we had a choice to have either no mentally ill people (through treatment plans) or no guns, the wise choice would be IMO no mentally ill people.
I know…dream on.