Kansas Crimson

twocoach - Maybe they do mean "guys who post a ton of stats who still never seem to win much in the playoffs". If so, fair enough BUT they have been to Conference Finals and played together in a Championship. Takes more than just yourself when it comes to winning playoff basketball games. Are they the reason why their teams haven't won championships? Some might tell you they are. I'm not one of them.
The "interesting fact" you shared is indeed interesting and as a friend of mine said to me and others last night, it's also "insane". Crazy days in the NBA. I used to think/feel all the turnover was a terrible thing. Now I have to admit I find it peaking my interest in what has otherwise typically been in the past a not too interesting for me regular season.

Did you know that James Harden was FIRST in the league in TURNOVERS?
Did you know that Russell Westbrook was SECOND?
Did you know that James Harden was FIRST in field goals ATTEMPTED?
Did you know that Russell Westbrook was FOURTH in field goals ATTEMPTED?
Did you know that Russell Westbrook was 130th in 3FG% at .290?
Did you know that Russell Westbrook was 38th in 3FGA?
Did you know that since Durant left OKC, Russell Westbrook has shot 38% from the field in the PLAYOFFS?
Did you know that since Durant left OKC, Russell Westbrook has averaged 5.25 TURNOVERS per GAME in the PLAYOFFS?

Paul1 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:59 am twocoach - Maybe they do mean "guys who post a ton of stats who still never seem to win much in the playoffs". If so, fair enough BUT they have been to Conference Finals and played together in a Championship. Takes more than just yourself when it comes to winning playoff basketball games. Are they the reason why their teams haven't won championships? Some might tell you they are. I'm not one of them.
The "interesting fact" you shared is indeed interesting and as a friend of mine said to me and others last night, it's also "insane". Crazy days in the NBA. I used to think/feel all the turnover was a terrible thing. Now I have to admit I find it peaking my interest in what has otherwise typically been in the past a not too interesting for me regular season.

What I do know is that both Westbrook and Harden have a reputation among teammates and other NBA players as stat chasers. To me, that has no negative connotation, it simply defines their chosen style of play. But to many it is a slur for whatever reason.

Both hang back to get rebounds. If I was a free agent Big who makes money grabbing boards, I sure would sign with Houston next year because you'll have 2 guards swarming the ball taking all your boards. So yeah, it's "good" that they get boards but their chosen style can have some negative backlash.

Both get the ball and dribble it a thousand times trying to be the guy who gets a teammate open. Is that because they specifically want an assist? In my mind, no. But it does have negative impact to ball movement and teammate buy-in from what I have seen.

Some real low NBAIQ going on this board, of course.

The Rockets were in a position where they had to do something and Chris Paul's contract is the heaviest anchor in the entire league. There were only 2 players the Rockets could have traded for: Russ or Wiggins. Not a hard choice there. The Rockets knew they weren't winning with an aging CP3 and they had to do something with Harden's window. They knew they had to give up a bunch of draft picks to get rid of CP3, so all things considered, this is the best return they could have imagined.

There are obviously some questions about fit as Harden is not close to the same style of player he was in 2012. Russ and Harden are really both ball dominant Point Guards. Although, Russ does open Harden up for more setup jumpers than Chris Paul does--this is how Russ has led the league in assists the last 3 years. The success can only be looked at in hindsight as it's pretty clear they're throwing away the post-Harden/Westbrook era.

However, there's no question that Russ is the better basketball player right now, so if they have to pay a contract, they'd rather have Russ to attempt to do something in the Harden window. Plus, he's 4 years younger. Again, fit problems, but Russell is worth a significant amount of more wins if not for Chris Paul's injuries alone--CP3 just hasn't played that many games as of late.

The trade is fascinating and unprecedented.

And, speaking of Wiggins, Paul is likely to go to Miami now, but given Wiggs's contract, you'd think that's also an option. Although would be a bad one for Minny.

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:52 amMaybe they mean "guys who post a ton of stats who still never seem to win much in the playoffs" when they call them stat chasers. Who knows.

So, Chris Paul?

It'd be pretty easy to say a lot of ball dominant players are stat chasers, they've both been in roles where they need to do it all for their teams. I still don't understand why trying to get a lot of rebounds and assists is negative. Especially when neither have ever been accused of not caring about winning. It's not high school. The best players have the ball in their hands the most, and rightfully so.

Can they win? Who knows. We will see. But Houston is better as a team with Russ than an aging ball dominant CP3 who is injury prone. I'd imagine their Vegas odds to win the title will reflect that change (although I haven't checked).

Well, if Russell cares about winning, there's no question that he has to stop taking so many catch and shoot jumpers.

Rockets got better from a regular season standpoint, and Russ helps a lot by being able to give Harden breathers, but Russell/Harden both have to understand that large individual stat lines aren't going to make them a tougher out in the Playoffs.

Rockets are better, but a lot of soul searching needs to happen.

The bar is Western Conference champs.
CnB and Illy have a lot riding on it.

IllinoisJayhawk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:30 am It'd be pretty easy to say a lot of ball dominant players are stat chasers, they've both been in roles where they need to do it all for their teams. I still don't understand why trying to get a lot of rebounds and assists is negative. Especially when neither have ever been accused of not caring about winning. It's not high school. The best players have the ball in their hands the most, and rightfully so.

Can they win? Who knows. We will see. But Houston is better as a team with Russ than an aging ball dominant CP3 who is injury prone. I'd imagine their Vegas odds to win the title will reflect that change (although I haven't checked).

Remember when Ricky Davis shot at the wrong hoop and missed on purpose to get a rebound so he'd get a triple double?

Russell Westbrook has basically normalized that kind of behavior on a nightly basis for the past 3 seasons. He's a stat chaser, the only way to argue against that is because you're a fan of his.

Harden isn't a stat chaser, at least not in the same way, imho. But...he's impossible to root for because his game has less to do with talent or athletic ability or effort than it has to do with essentially exploiting loopholes in the rules. He's the real life version of one of those people who figures out that if you just do a leg sweep move in mortal kombat over and over non-stop that you're impossible to beat.

I've never seen Russ shoot at the wrong basket. You could say stat chaser, others could say stat sheet stuffer. I don't think it's bad that he goes after every rebound.

Harden still makes the shots after his weird travel step back. He's an extremely talented ball handler and shooter.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:28 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:52 amMaybe they mean "guys who post a ton of stats who still never seem to win much in the playoffs" when they call them stat chasers. Who knows.

So, Chris Paul?

Agreed. Although he seems to be one of those "I want every single detail of every single play to be executed to perfection every single time and if it isnt then I am going to tell at you all game" guys. Some players get lost in the micro view and lose track of the macro view.

LeBron seems to be a bit like that as well but with otherworldly genetic gifts that allow him to overcome his own issues better and win more.

CrimsonNBlue wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:27 am And, speaking of Wiggins, Paul is likely to go to Miami now, but given Wiggs's contract, you'd think that's also an option. Although would be a bad one for Minny.

My God, can you imagine both Paul and Butler playing together? Their poor teammates are going to be verbally abused every day. They just became the least fun team to play for.

It's funny how some like to think Russ or LeBron are bad teammates, but it's CP3 who numerous players say is actually a bad teammate. Weird.

Did the Rockets improve or hurt their chances to win a title next year? It will he interesting to see how it plays out. And if Paul does indeed find his way to Miami and Miami can avoid giving up too much for him then does Miami join the list of EC contenders?

"The Harden-Paul combination worked so well in part because Paul is lethal on catch-and-shoot 3s. Westbrook is not. Westbrook has hit about 33% of such shots combined over the past three seasons, per NBA.com. He is one of the worst high-volume 3-point shooters in NBA history.

He has, frankly, been useless away from the ball, save for the occasional slash inside for an offensive rebound. (Steven Adams is maybe the biggest winner in this deal, by the way. He can actually grab some defensive rebounds now. He is one of the league's burliest rebounders, and yet his career defensive rebounding rate is almost on par with that of Andrea Bargnani -- one of the worst big man rebounders ever.)"

Grizzlies' Allen ejected after 2 flagrants, tech https://es.pn/2jDPL8E

Something we can all agree on. Grayson is a whiny bitch.

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:03 am Did the Rockets improve or hurt their chances to win a title next year? It will he interesting to see how it plays out. And if Paul does indeed find his way to Miami and Miami can avoid giving up too much for him then does Miami join the list of EC contenders?

Jimmy and CP3 don't make that team anywhere close to as good as the Bucks or 76ers. That's probably a 2 horse race, unless KD is a miracle healer and comes back around January.

pdub wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:06 am "The Harden-Paul combination worked so well in part because Paul is lethal on catch-and-shoot 3s. Westbrook is not. Westbrook has hit about 33% of such shots combined over the past three seasons, per NBA.com. He is one of the worst high-volume 3-point shooters in NBA history.

Russ is not a good catch and shoot player. He's not good away from the ball. No denying it. LeBron isn't good off the ball. Embiid isn't good off the ball. Giannis isn't good off the ball. Simmons isn't good off the ball...etc. many of the best players in the league aren't good off the ball.

....but just so you know CP3 shot under 36% from 3pt land last year too.....and he's also only played more than 61 games 1 time in the last 4 years, with 2 seasons of 58 games.

Russ shot under 30% from 3pt land last year.