Kansas Crimson

pdub wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:38 am My guess is he will do everything but be there in game where stress on his heart would significantly increase.

This might even mean watching the game at the arena and being there in the locker room at halftime.

My guess is that he will be back to work doing his job on the sidelines tomorrow afternoon. Both he and KU have stated that he will be coaching this week so I have no reason to doubt that.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:00 pm Gross. Just hanging banners for woulda been a 1 seed now?


Being a 1 seed doesn't = national champion.

Being the best team on paper doesn't = national champion.

Should Baylor hang a banner too? They were going to be a 1 seed and were definitely one of the best teams.


Personal preference obviously, but seems silly to me. There was no national champion that year because no tournament was held. That's okay with me. I think canceling it was the right move at the time.

KU got 63/65 #1 AP votes. 29/32 coaches' poll votes.

To me, that's substantially equivalent to - if not more decisive than - the Helms "titles."

Same concept though.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:03 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:00 pm Gross. Just hanging banners for woulda been a 1 seed now?


Being a 1 seed doesn't = national champion.

Being the best team on paper doesn't = national champion.

Should Baylor hang a banner too? They were going to be a 1 seed and were definitely one of the best teams.


Personal preference obviously, but seems silly to me. There was no national champion that year because no tournament was held. That's okay with me. I think canceling it was the right move at the time.

KU got 63/65 #1 AP votes. 29/32 coaches' poll votes.

To me, that's substantially equivalent to - if not more decisive than - the Helms "titles."

Same concept though.

The Helms titles are dumb. Adding more to that just isn't necessary. I dont think it does anything but give voice to detractors if you hang a banner for something that didn't happen.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:03 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:00 pm Gross. Just hanging banners for woulda been a 1 seed now?


Being a 1 seed doesn't = national champion.

Being the best team on paper doesn't = national champion.

Should Baylor hang a banner too? They were going to be a 1 seed and were definitely one of the best teams.


Personal preference obviously, but seems silly to me. There was no national champion that year because no tournament was held. That's okay with me. I think canceling it was the right move at the time.

KU got 63/65 #1 AP votes. 29/32 coaches' poll votes.

To me, that's substantially equivalent to - if not more decisive than - the Helms "titles."

Same concept though.

Except back then that's how it was decided.

It is not how it is decided nowadays.

Crowning yourself national champions when a tournament to decide the national champion wasn't played seems silly to me.

It's okay for there not to be a champion in that year.

twocoach wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:05 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:03 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:00 pm Gross. Just hanging banners for woulda been a 1 seed now?


Being a 1 seed doesn't = national champion.

Being the best team on paper doesn't = national champion.

Should Baylor hang a banner too? They were going to be a 1 seed and were definitely one of the best teams.


Personal preference obviously, but seems silly to me. There was no national champion that year because no tournament was held. That's okay with me. I think canceling it was the right move at the time.

KU got 63/65 #1 AP votes. 29/32 coaches' poll votes.

To me, that's substantially equivalent to - if not more decisive than - the Helms "titles."

Same concept though.

The Helms titles are dumb. Adding more to that just isn't necessary. I dont think it does anything but give voice to detractors if you hang a banner for something that didn't happen.

Sort of where I am at.

I guarantee the players from that team don't feel like national champions. I am sure they all wish they'd have had the opportunity to earn that title though.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:06 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:03 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:00 pm Gross. Just hanging banners for woulda been a 1 seed now?


Being a 1 seed doesn't = national champion.

Being the best team on paper doesn't = national champion.

Should Baylor hang a banner too? They were going to be a 1 seed and were definitely one of the best teams.


Personal preference obviously, but seems silly to me. There was no national champion that year because no tournament was held. That's okay with me. I think canceling it was the right move at the time.

KU got 63/65 #1 AP votes. 29/32 coaches' poll votes.

To me, that's substantially equivalent to - if not more decisive than - the Helms "titles."

Same concept though.

Except back then that's how it was decided.

It is not how it is decided nowadays.

Crowning yourself national champions when a tournament to decide the national champion wasn't played seems silly to me.

It's okay for there not to be a champion in that year.

I wouldn't shed a tear if we stopped counting the Helms titles. All I'm saying is that, for so long as we count those, 2020 is more or less the same thing so why not treat it the same.

(It's also not true that "back then that's how it was decided." The 1922 and 1923 "titles" were awarded retroactively, in 1943. Based on, you know, the poll results we have in hand, it seems pretty safe to assume that we'd retroactively be awarded the 2020 "title" were a body convened for such a purpose.)

in the absence of another metric, i see no issue with celebrating that team in one way or another

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:16 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:06 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:03 pm

KU got 63/65 #1 AP votes. 29/32 coaches' poll votes.

To me, that's substantially equivalent to - if not more decisive than - the Helms "titles."

Same concept though.

Except back then that's how it was decided.

It is not how it is decided nowadays.

Crowning yourself national champions when a tournament to decide the national champion wasn't played seems silly to me.

It's okay for there not to be a champion in that year.

I wouldn't shed a tear if we stopped counting the Helms titles. All I'm saying is that, for so long as we count those, 2020 is more or less the same thing so why not treat it the same.

(It's also not true that "back then that's how it was decided." The 1922 and 1923 "titles" were awarded retroactively, in 1943. Based on, you know, the poll results we have in hand, it seems pretty safe to assume that we'd retroactively be awarded the 2020 "title" were a body convened for such a purpose.)

My thought too.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:16 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:06 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:03 pm

KU got 63/65 #1 AP votes. 29/32 coaches' poll votes.

To me, that's substantially equivalent to - if not more decisive than - the Helms "titles."

Same concept though.

Except back then that's how it was decided.

It is not how it is decided nowadays.

Crowning yourself national champions when a tournament to decide the national champion wasn't played seems silly to me.

It's okay for there not to be a champion in that year.

I wouldn't shed a tear if we stopped counting the Helms titles. All I'm saying is that, for so long as we count those, 2020 is more or less the same thing so why not treat it the same.

(It's also not true that "back then that's how it was decided." The 1922 and 1923 "titles" were awarded retroactively, in 1943. Based on, you know, the poll results we have in hand, it seems pretty safe to assume that we'd retroactively be awarded the 2020 "title" were a body convened for such a purpose.)

But we didn't award ourselves the Helms titles. In this scenario we are declaring ourselves national champions.

I wouldn't lose sleep over it either way. It sucks we didn't get a chance to see if that team could rattle off 6 straight. But an * banner does nothing to change the fact the tournament was canceled.

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:43 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:16 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:06 pm

Except back then that's how it was decided.

It is not how it is decided nowadays.

Crowning yourself national champions when a tournament to decide the national champion wasn't played seems silly to me.

It's okay for there not to be a champion in that year.

I wouldn't shed a tear if we stopped counting the Helms titles. All I'm saying is that, for so long as we count those, 2020 is more or less the same thing so why not treat it the same.

(It's also not true that "back then that's how it was decided." The 1922 and 1923 "titles" were awarded retroactively, in 1943. Based on, you know, the poll results we have in hand, it seems pretty safe to assume that we'd retroactively be awarded the 2020 "title" were a body convened for such a purpose.)

But we didn't award ourselves the Helms titles. In this scenario we are declaring ourselves national champions.

I wouldn't lose sleep over it either way. It sucks we didn't get a chance to see if that team could rattle off 6 straight. But an * banner does nothing to change the fact the tournament was canceled.

Again, just seems like a distinction without a difference. 63/65 AP voters, 29/32 coaches. With those votes being recorded in real-time. I would guess that the Helms process was not nearly so reliable.

While I agree the Natty was likely ours to lose in 2020, I fear awarding ourselves a title we didn't actually win would make our program appear kinda desperate, which we are not.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:46 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:43 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:16 pm

I wouldn't shed a tear if we stopped counting the Helms titles. All I'm saying is that, for so long as we count those, 2020 is more or less the same thing so why not treat it the same.

(It's also not true that "back then that's how it was decided." The 1922 and 1923 "titles" were awarded retroactively, in 1943. Based on, you know, the poll results we have in hand, it seems pretty safe to assume that we'd retroactively be awarded the 2020 "title" were a body convened for such a purpose.)

But we didn't award ourselves the Helms titles. In this scenario we are declaring ourselves national champions.

I wouldn't lose sleep over it either way. It sucks we didn't get a chance to see if that team could rattle off 6 straight. But an * banner does nothing to change the fact the tournament was canceled.

Again, just seems like a distinction without a difference. 63/65 AP voters, 29/32 coaches. With those votes being recorded in real-time. I would guess that the Helms process was not nearly so reliable.

Agree about the Helms. Which is why they don't "count" when we see lists of all time national title counts.

If college basketball as a whole said "hey we want to retroactively award Kansas a national title for being 1st in the last AP poll" then I guess that's fine. I still wouldn't think it was as valid as 2008 or 2022. But we are talking about declaring ourselves national champions I think.

Feral wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:21 pm While I agree the Natty was likely ours to lose in 2020, I fear awarding ourselves a title we didn't actually win would make our program appear kinda desperate, which we are not.

this is why i think a non-banner acknowledgement is sufficient

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:00 pm Gross. Just hanging banners for woulda been a 1 seed now?


Being a 1 seed doesn't = national champion.

Being the best team on paper doesn't = national champion.

Should Baylor hang a banner too? They were going to be a 1 seed and were definitely one of the best teams.


Personal preference obviously, but seems silly to me. There was no national champion that year because no tournament was held. That's okay with me. I think canceling it was the right move at the time.

Being the #1 seed overall is not the same as being A 1 seed.

Being ranked #1 in the nation after 30+ games means more than just being best on paper.

I mean, until the 1990s this is how EVERY college football champion was determined.

If you don't want to recognize that team that's fine. But don't minimize the things they ACTUALLY did accomplish.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:34 pm

Feral wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:21 pm While I agree the Natty was likely ours to lose in 2020, I fear awarding ourselves a title we didn't actually win would make our program appear kinda desperate, which we are not.

this is why i think a non-banner acknowledgement is sufficient

For sure.

We should acknowledge the 2020 teams accomplishments. Just like we do for all of our teams. But maybe a little something extra for them. Dok will have a banner for sure.

I think we mostly all probably agreed with the tournament being canceled. It was unfortunate, but at the time sports weren't the priority.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:38 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:00 pm Gross. Just hanging banners for woulda been a 1 seed now?


Being a 1 seed doesn't = national champion.

Being the best team on paper doesn't = national champion.

Should Baylor hang a banner too? They were going to be a 1 seed and were definitely one of the best teams.


Personal preference obviously, but seems silly to me. There was no national champion that year because no tournament was held. That's okay with me. I think canceling it was the right move at the time.

Being the #1 seed overall is not the same as being A 1 seed.

Being ranked #1 in the nation after 30+ games means more than just being best on paper.

I mean, until the 1990s this is how EVERY college football champion was determined.

If you don't want to recognize that team that's fine. But don't minimize the things they ACTUALLY did accomplish.

I would note also that the final poll voting was done several days AFTER it had been announced that the tournament was spiked. So, every voter knew they were voting in the final poll.

Carry that with the college football "championship" analogy.

so if this years tourney is cancelled. do you favor recognizing alabama above all. they are the #1 seed overall. they are ranked #1 in the nation.

i bet you don't.

Feral wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:21 pm While I agree the Natty was likely ours to lose in 2020, I fear awarding ourselves a title we didn't actually win would make our program appear kinda desperate, which we are not.

This. Hanging a banner for it puts us in the KSU echelon. No thanks. We have actual titles that we can claim. Make a nice section in AFH dedicated to the lost tourney of 2020 and that team and call it good.

Back on topic, Self took the team through their official practice today so I fully expect him to be out there tomorrow.

PhDhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:38 pm

BasketballJayhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:00 pm Gross. Just hanging banners for woulda been a 1 seed now?


Being a 1 seed doesn't = national champion.

Being the best team on paper doesn't = national champion.

Should Baylor hang a banner too? They were going to be a 1 seed and were definitely one of the best teams.


Personal preference obviously, but seems silly to me. There was no national champion that year because no tournament was held. That's okay with me. I think canceling it was the right move at the time.

Being the #1 seed overall is not the same as being A 1 seed.

Being ranked #1 in the nation after 30+ games means more than just being best on paper.

I mean, until the 1990s this is how EVERY college football champion was determined.

If you don't want to recognize that team that's fine. But don't minimize the things they ACTUALLY did accomplish.

Sorry. Had to take you off ignore real quick.

Nobody is minimizing their accomplishments. At all. But winning a national title is not something they accomplished.

Not sure what college football 30+ years ago has to do with anything?


We were definitely the "best" team in CBB in 19-20. Unfortunately college basketball didn't get to crown a narional champion due to covid. And the NCAA chose not to pick a champion based on media and coaches voting.

I do wish that entire team would have returned to handle their unfinished business. Which was an option.