Feral wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:42 pm
Life in a First World country that believes in science?
Again, praise for the efficiency of the German bureaucracy strikes me as...a tad unwise.
Save praise for the dictators....right?
Re: Fox and Friends
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:55 pm
by DCHawk1
umm...maybe read Eichmann in Jerusalem.
Re: Fox and Friends
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:43 pm
by Deleted User 89
if rather be German than republican?
Re: Fox and Friends
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:44 pm
by ousdahl
wait, what?
you're holding off praise for a country's pandemic response cuz of a book written in 1963?
Re: Fox and Friends
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:06 pm
by DCHawk1
lulz
German bureaucracy is notoriously (and ruthlessly) efficient. It was the model for Weber's "ideal type." It was exploited to deadly effect by Hitler and then Honecker. Even today, it is the most rigid, structured, and suffocatingly powerful organizational structure in the world.
That will undoubtedly help in this crisis, although I'm pretty sure it's not worth the trade-offs, long-term.
Re: Fox and Friends
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:07 pm
by DCHawk1
TraditionKU wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:43 pm
if rather be German than republican?
German bureaucracy is notoriously (and ruthlessly) efficient. It was the model for Weber's "ideal type." It was exploited to deadly effect by Hitler and then Honecker. Even today, it is the most rigid, structured, and suffocatingly powerful organizational structure in the world.
That will undoubtedly help in this crisis, although I'm pretty sure it's not worth the trade-offs, long-term.
For a short while in 1982 I lived in Berlin. I didn't see one Berliner cross the street against the crossing sign, only we Americans and a couple of Brits did. And the look they gave us? It was as if we had just committed a murder. I was stunned.
German bureaucracy is notoriously (and ruthlessly) efficient. It was the model for Weber's "ideal type." It was exploited to deadly effect by Hitler and then Honecker. Even today, it is the most rigid, structured, and suffocatingly powerful organizational structure in the world.
That will undoubtedly help in this crisis, although I'm pretty sure it's not worth the trade-offs, long-term.
What trade-offs are you talking about (serious question)? As defix said, I can do without the "freedom to jaywalk", as an example. It's not like the German scientists are any less innovative than those in the US or that their standard of living and their daily lives are in any way diminished than ours. I have traveled to Germany frequently during the past few years for work (among several EU destinations - Italy, France, Switzerland), interacted intensely with locals and even made lasting friendships. I don't see a whole lot different over there than here.
Re: Fox and Friends
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:25 pm
by ousdahl
DC’s response is great. You’re so good when you want to be.
But at the same time, it seems pretty cynical to see another country doing objectively better at managing an emergency, and be so dismissive.
My reaction, at least, was to be curious what they’re doing better, and why, and what constructive takeaways we might be able to learn from it.
But to look at the other side of the coin DC flipped: is the Merican style bureaucracy, however one might describe it, worth the trade-offs?
German bureaucracy is notoriously (and ruthlessly) efficient. It was the model for Weber's "ideal type." It was exploited to deadly effect by Hitler and then Honecker. Even today, it is the most rigid, structured, and suffocatingly powerful organizational structure in the world.
That will undoubtedly help in this crisis, although I'm pretty sure it's not worth the trade-offs, long-term.
What trade-offs are you talking about (serious question)? As defix said, I can do without the "freedom to jaywalk", as an example. It's not like the German scientists are any less innovative than those in the US or that their standard of living and their daily lives are in any way diminished than ours. I have traveled to Germany frequently during the past few years for work (among several EU destinations - Italy, France, Switzerland), interacted intensely with locals and even made lasting friendships. I don't see a whole lot different over there than here.
Well, for starters, the present moment is inconsequential if/when the bureaucracy can be put to work in the process of accomplishing evil ends.
I mean, 75 years of seeming normalcy is more than offset by 6 years of active complicity in the Final Solution -- and that "normalcy" wasn't especially normal for those on the wrong side of the Wall.
Additionally, the process of dehumanization -- in both sense of the word -- that is extant in the German bureaucracy (by DESIGN) undermines the very notion of self-governance. Nothing changes in German government, from Schmidt to Kohl to Schroeder to Merkel. That's stable and comforting. But good luck to you if you have a problem with the ruling-class -- or if you choose to work your way into it from the outside.
I imagine the Turks who have emigrated to Germany think you're out of your damn mind.