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Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:53 pm
by jfish26
Feral wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:44 pm
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:53 pm And because of that I am anti-abortion in every case except for to save the mother's life.

I would say that life starts when two people's DNA forms a single strand and starts replicating. But I'm so uncertain of that that I usually try to steer clear of the abortion debate (except for, like, right here).
So, you're in favor of the government forcing victim's of rape and incest to carry the perpetrator's "child" to term?

smfh
I think it's complicated!

If you believe that life begins when DNA starts replicating...then logically it must follow that how the pregnancy occurred is irrelevant.

I don't know where I'd draw the line, but it's somewhere between replication and viability; somewhere between those points, a bundle of unique stuff has become a unique person. But I don't know where.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:11 pm
by Mjl
Feral wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:44 pm
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:53 pm And because of that I am anti-abortion in every case except for to save the mother's life.

I would say that life starts when two people's DNA forms a single strand and starts replicating. But I'm so uncertain of that that I usually try to steer clear of the abortion debate (except for, like, right here).
So, you're in favor of the government forcing victim's of rape and incest to carry the perpetrator's "child" to term?

smfh
Yes, because it doesn't justify taking a life - that child wasn't a perpetrator. The only thing it could justify is taking the life of the rapist.

Would you be for being allowed to kill a six week old child because it was the product of rape or incest?

For someone who believes life starts in the womb, there is no difference between the two.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:12 pm
by Mjl
jfish26 wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:53 pm
Feral wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:44 pm
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:53 pm And because of that I am anti-abortion in every case except for to save the mother's life.

I would say that life starts when two people's DNA forms a single strand and starts replicating. But I'm so uncertain of that that I usually try to steer clear of the abortion debate (except for, like, right here).
So, you're in favor of the government forcing victim's of rape and incest to carry the perpetrator's "child" to term?

smfh
I think it's complicated!

If you believe that life begins when DNA starts replicating...then logically it must follow that how the pregnancy occurred is irrelevant.

I don't know where I'd draw the line, but it's somewhere between replication and viability; somewhere between those points, a bundle of unique stuff has become a unique person. But I don't know where.
You put that better than I did

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:17 pm
by randylahey
Whats the joke

If abortion is murder then is a blowjob cannibalism

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:17 pm
by TDub
whoever made that "joke" needs to maybe read a biology book?

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:59 pm
by twocoach
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:53 pm And because of that I am anti-abortion in every case except for to save the mother's life.

I would say that life starts when two people's DNA forms a single strand and starts replicating. But I'm so uncertain of that that I usually try to steer clear of the abortion debate (except for, like, right here).
The laws of our nation aren't meant to cover all living humans. They are meant to cover citizens of the United States. If you make the laws cover all living things that could eventually be citizens of the United States then you have to include every unborn baby on the planet because if the mother carrying that person were to be on US soil when that baby is born then that baby is a US citizen. If any pregnancy is considered a baby covered by the Constitution then all laws of the land must cover that unborn child. Pregnant women should be allowed to start getting tax credits before the child is born, etc...

This whole notion that you can kinda treat them like citizens but kinda not is ridiculous. Until that potential US citizen gets to the point of viability (currently around weeks 22-24 or so) then it shouldn't be given preferential treatment over the actual US citizen that is carrying it.

I hope that no woman every finds herself in a situation where they feel that an abortion is their best decision. I wish that more funds and efforts went towards helping people choose adoption instead of abortion if they truly do not want to keep their baby. But it is not my right to limit that person's choices as I know nothing of their situation that they find themselves in and it should not be the right of lawmakers.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 5:04 pm
by Mjl
twocoach wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:59 pm
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:53 pm And because of that I am anti-abortion in every case except for to save the mother's life.

I would say that life starts when two people's DNA forms a single strand and starts replicating. But I'm so uncertain of that that I usually try to steer clear of the abortion debate (except for, like, right here).
The laws of our nation aren't meant to cover all living humans. They are meant to cover citizens of the United States. If you make the laws cover all living things that could eventually be citizens of the United States then you have to include every unborn baby on the planet because if the mother carrying that person were to be on US soil when that baby is born then that baby is a US citizen. If any pregnancy is considered a baby covered by the Constitution then all laws of the land must cover that unborn child. Pregnant women should be allowed to start getting tax credits before the child is born, etc...

This whole notion that you can kinda treat them like citizens but kinda not is ridiculous. Until that potential US citizen gets to the point of viability (currently around weeks 22-24 or so) then it shouldn't be given preferential treatment over the actual US citizen that is carrying it.
I'm talking morally/ethically, not legally.

Your PoV here allows for extremely late term abortion... Possibly including the period of time between conception and the form you fill out for the government getting processed. You sure you want that to be your argument?

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 8:55 pm
by Shirley
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:11 pm
Feral wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:44 pm
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:53 pm And because of that I am anti-abortion in every case except for to save the mother's life.

I would say that life starts when two people's DNA forms a single strand and starts replicating. But I'm so uncertain of that that I usually try to steer clear of the abortion debate (except for, like, right here).
So, you're in favor of the government forcing victim's of rape and incest to carry the perpetrator's "child" to term?

smfh
Yes, because it doesn't justify taking a life - that child wasn't a perpetrator. The only thing it could justify is taking the life of the rapist.

Would you be for being allowed to kill a six week old child because it was the product of rape or incest?

For someone who believes life starts in the womb, there is no difference between the two.
So you’re in favor of a system where a fetus’s, I mean baby’s, i.e., “person’s”, wants and desires, (despite not having any), take precedence over those of the woman carrying it, unless it poses a clear danger to her life. Right?

Consider that approximately 15-20%, 750,000-1,000,000 known pregnancies each year in the United States, end in a miscarriage. It’s assumed that the real total is at least twice if not three or more times that high, (many believe ~ 50%), since it’s very likely the majority of miscarriages occur before a woman ever knows she’s pregnant. So, by a conservative estimate, at least 1.5-2.5 million “people” die every year in the US due to being the victim of a miscarriage.

When a little over one million people in the US died due to Covid over ~ 3 years, many Americans got pretty worked up about it, and felt it was unnecessarily high. Yet, probably at least twice that many “people” are dying every year due to miscarriages, and nothing? Where is the outrage? Nobody cares enough to do something? Two million of our fellow Americans are dying due to miscarriages every year, and we don’t care?

What have we become as a nation?

Isn’t it negligent on our part, if we don’t at least try?

I have an idea…

Because of gravity, women in pre-term labor are routinely put on bedrest for weeks and months to try to buy time and preserve their pregnancies. When you think about it, gravity is no friend to the adherence of any “person’s” placenta to the womb under any circumstances, so in an effort to save the maximum number of “people” possible, why not put all women on bedrest as soon as their pregnancy diagnosis is made? It might save a significant number of those ~ 2,000,000 previously lost miscarried “people’s” lives yearly, but even if it only saves one “person”, isn’t it worth it?

Is it good for the “person”, and if so, why stop there?

Sometimes miscarriages are due to an incompetent cervix. The cervix is unable to withstand the pressure above it produced by the weight and volume of the developing “person”, and the cervix dilates open prematurely and the “person” comes out. After a woman is diagnosed with an “incompetent cervix”, which is usually after two or three failures, (i.e., dead "people"), of trying to carry a pregnancy long enough to reach viability, a cerclage is performed.

Cerclage: A procedure in which the cervical opening is closed with stitches to prevent or delay preterm birth.

But, why wait?

Mandating an intra-vaginal procedure as minor as a cerclage as early as possible on every pregnant woman in America isn’t too high a price to pay to ensure we save the most “people” who might have been miscarried, otherwise. And since women are going to be forced to carry their pregnancies to term anyway, why not sew all their cervixes shut early, in an effort to save the maximum number of “people” possible?

To do anything less, would be a sin…

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:05 pm
by Mjl
There's no legal obligation for people to do absolutely everything possible to attempt to save every life for post-womb people.

You could apply the same logic and it would sound every bit as nuts.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:34 am
by RainbowsandUnicorns
No one comment on this yet?

"Just like we did to Black people".


Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:36 am
by jfish26
Through the looking glass; beyond parody; etc.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:22 am
by twocoach
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 5:04 pm
twocoach wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:59 pm
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:53 pm And because of that I am anti-abortion in every case except for to save the mother's life.

I would say that life starts when two people's DNA forms a single strand and starts replicating. But I'm so uncertain of that that I usually try to steer clear of the abortion debate (except for, like, right here).
The laws of our nation aren't meant to cover all living humans. They are meant to cover citizens of the United States. If you make the laws cover all living things that could eventually be citizens of the United States then you have to include every unborn baby on the planet because if the mother carrying that person were to be on US soil when that baby is born then that baby is a US citizen. If any pregnancy is considered a baby covered by the Constitution then all laws of the land must cover that unborn child. Pregnant women should be allowed to start getting tax credits before the child is born, etc...

This whole notion that you can kinda treat them like citizens but kinda not is ridiculous. Until that potential US citizen gets to the point of viability (currently around weeks 22-24 or so) then it shouldn't be given preferential treatment over the actual US citizen that is carrying it.
I'm talking morally/ethically, not legally.

Your PoV here allows for extremely late term abortion... Possibly including the period of time between conception and the form you fill out for the government getting processed. You sure you want that to be your argument?
Well, considering that you added it to my argument, no. As I stated, I don't have a problem with abortions prior to about week 22-24. Beyond that is not acceptable to me personally unless the child has zero ability to live outside the mother (is stillborn etc...) or there are other extreme situations in play.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:23 am
by twocoach
RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:34 am No one comment on this yet?

"Just like we did to Black people".

It's just so corny that it doesn't even require a comment. Just shameless pandering trying to pick up the conservative votes of people who are sick of Trump.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:32 am
by jfish26
twocoach wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:23 am
RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:34 am No one comment on this yet?

"Just like we did to Black people".

It's just so corny that it doesn't even require a comment. Just shameless pandering trying to pick up the conservative votes of people who are sick of Trump.
So, I didn’t even bother to watch it earlier. It’s dumber than I expected (and yes, he actually DOES say “just like we did to black people”).

And, two things here:

1 - I would love to see the results of a poll taken at an NRA convention, of the simple question “On a 1-10 scale (1 being too few, 10 being too many), do black people have the right number of guns?”

2 - The idiocy (and panderingness) of saying we should arm Taiwanese households as a means of enabling them to defend an attack by China…sort of gives up the entire ghost on the Second Amendment here, right? Because we could arm Taiwan with ten AR-15s per household - with one hundred AR-15s per household - and it wouldn’t matter fuck-all if China in fact decided to take Taiwan. This isn’t 1789. Whatever utility was once served by well-regulated (citizen) militias, such that it was important for citizen militias to be armed and empowered to defend our country, is a relic of the past.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:42 am
by Mjl
twocoach wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:22 am
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 5:04 pm
twocoach wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 4:59 pm

The laws of our nation aren't meant to cover all living humans. They are meant to cover citizens of the United States. If you make the laws cover all living things that could eventually be citizens of the United States then you have to include every unborn baby on the planet because if the mother carrying that person were to be on US soil when that baby is born then that baby is a US citizen. If any pregnancy is considered a baby covered by the Constitution then all laws of the land must cover that unborn child. Pregnant women should be allowed to start getting tax credits before the child is born, etc...

This whole notion that you can kinda treat them like citizens but kinda not is ridiculous. Until that potential US citizen gets to the point of viability (currently around weeks 22-24 or so) then it shouldn't be given preferential treatment over the actual US citizen that is carrying it.
I'm talking morally/ethically, not legally.

Your PoV here allows for extremely late term abortion... Possibly including the period of time between conception and the form you fill out for the government getting processed. You sure you want that to be your argument?
Well, considering that you added it to my argument, no. As I stated, I don't have a problem with abortions prior to about week 22-24. Beyond that is not acceptable to me personally unless the child has zero ability to live outside the mother (is stillborn etc...) or there are other extreme situations in play.
In that case I can't tell what the point of your first paragraph was

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:44 am
by twocoach
Mjl wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:42 am
twocoach wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:22 am
Mjl wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 5:04 pm

I'm talking morally/ethically, not legally.

Your PoV here allows for extremely late term abortion... Possibly including the period of time between conception and the form you fill out for the government getting processed. You sure you want that to be your argument?
Well, considering that you added it to my argument, no. As I stated, I don't have a problem with abortions prior to about week 22-24. Beyond that is not acceptable to me personally unless the child has zero ability to live outside the mother (is stillborn etc...) or there are other extreme situations in play.
In that case I can't tell what the point of your first paragraph was
It means I am approaching this from a legal position, not a moral one as the arguments about abortion are legal ones, not moral ones, and I don't feel that giving an unborn baby more legal rights under the Constitution than the US citizen that is carrying that baby.

I have zero problem with people having a moral opposition to abortion at any point. That's your right. Just don't make your moral opinion the law of the land. Those morals should only go as far as preventing you personally from supporting someone you know in seeking out an abortion.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:10 am
by dolomite
According to WHO, every year in the world there are around 73 million induced abortions. This corresponds to approximately 200,000 abortions per day. https://www.worldometers.info/abortions/
Think you can legislate morality? Think again. So arguing about it is a wasteful effort. IMO the laws regarding abortion should be thrown out. Time to concentrate on something more important.

"This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no foolin' around!", David Byrne

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:15 am
by zsn
twocoach wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:44 am
I have zero problem with people having a moral opposition to abortion at any point. That's your right. Just don't make your moral opinion the law of the land. Those morals should only go as far as preventing you personally from supporting someone you know in seeking out an abortion.
I’m really astounded that many people don’t understand this. It would be akin to Buddhists and Hindus getting together and demanding that their moral opposition to animal slaughter should dictate their beliefs should become legal policy, and thus everyone should become vegetarian!

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:24 am
by jfish26
Right. I would guess there are many, many sincerely held religious beliefs that Rs would NOT want to see becoming the law of the land.

Re: Vivek ramaswamy

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:02 am
by Mjl
Aren't pretty much all laws the codification of morals?