Kansas Crimson

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:04 pm DH is going to finish top 5ish in career assists in KU history. He didn’t do that because he's some Bill Self charity case who sucks.

He doesn't suck. He tries hard. Is probably nice to children and dogs.

But - while his counting numbers will reflect him being a good player who tries hard and played a ton of minutes over many seasons, they are also a MASSIVE indictment of GM Bill.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:24 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:04 pm DH is going to finish top 5ish in career assists in KU history. He didn’t do that because he's some Bill Self charity case who sucks.

He doesn't suck. He tries hard. Is probably nice to children and dogs.

But - while his counting numbers will reflect him being a good player who tries hard and played a ton of minutes over many seasons, they are also a MASSIVE indictment of GM Bill.

Maybe GM Bill has decided we will win more games with DHs and KJs than we would recruiting nothing but 1 and dones at all 5 starting positions (which Self hasn't done well with at PG)?

Part of it is what the atmosphere around the program has been the last several years. Part of it is Self's relative lack of success with 1 and dones (especially at PG). Part of it is when you have multi year vets returning at key positions it becomes a negative for incoming recruits because they usually don't want to battle for minutes or sit for a season or 2.

If you have lotto picks at all 5 starting spots then you replace all 5 starting spots each year. Not sure that's a better formula for sustained success than the philosophy Self seems to follow.

i figured our recruiting would get back to "pre never ending investigation" normal, after the never ending investigation finally wrapped up. except. now we have nil and a transfer portal.

so we may never get back tp "pre never ending investigation" normal. that might be a thing of the past.

until the braintrust tries to fix this. and makes this even worse.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:41 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:24 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:04 pm DH is going to finish top 5ish in career assists in KU history. He didn’t do that because he's some Bill Self charity case who sucks.

He doesn't suck. He tries hard. Is probably nice to children and dogs.

But - while his counting numbers will reflect him being a good player who tries hard and played a ton of minutes over many seasons, they are also a MASSIVE indictment of GM Bill.

Maybe GM Bill has decided we will win more games with DHs and KJs than we would recruiting nothing but 1 and dones at all 5 starting positions (which Self hasn't done well with at PG)?

You know this is a false choice.

I think what has REALLY happened is that Bill misunderstood what Frank and Devonte's success meant.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:51 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:41 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:24 pm

He doesn't suck. He tries hard. Is probably nice to children and dogs.

But - while his counting numbers will reflect him being a good player who tries hard and played a ton of minutes over many seasons, they are also a MASSIVE indictment of GM Bill.

Maybe GM Bill has decided we will win more games with DHs and KJs than we would recruiting nothing but 1 and dones at all 5 starting positions (which Self hasn't done well with at PG)?

You know this is a false choice.

I think what has REALLY happened is that Bill misunderstood what Frank and Devonte's success meant.

Frank and Devonte never won a national title. DH has.

So maybe Self underdtood exactly what Frank and Devonte's success meant and it's some of the fans having trouble understanding that Self knows how to build teams better than they do?

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:59 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:51 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:41 pm

Maybe GM Bill has decided we will win more games with DHs and KJs than we would recruiting nothing but 1 and dones at all 5 starting positions (which Self hasn't done well with at PG)?

You know this is a false choice.

I think what has REALLY happened is that Bill misunderstood what Frank and Devonte's success meant.

Frank and Devonte never won a national title. DH has.

So maybe Self underdtood exactly what Frank and Devonte's success meant and it's some of the fans having trouble understanding that Self knows how to build teams better than they do?

False choice before, false equivalency here.

A title does not confer this kind of status on a guy who was tenth on the title team in PER and WS/40.

This is precisely what I mean when I say Harris gets treated like a second-tier Bill PG, when in reality he might not even be third-tier.

We just aren't going to agree on this. Which is totally fine. You're right, indivudally DH isn't a top PG at KU. But when you put him on a court during games with 4 other people he makes teams better.

I am going to side with Bill Self knowing more about it than we ever possibly could solely watching games on TV.

Who could we have had or should have had the last 2 years that would have been better for the KU team winning games than DH?

I bet there isn't more than a dozen or so you can come up with that were realistic to come to KU at the time.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:17 pm We just aren't going to agree on this. Which is totally fine.

I am going to side with Bill Self knowing more about it than we ever possibly could solely watching games on TV.

I think Bill knows a ton about it.

Which is why the plan was NOT what we're seeing.

The plan was for Harris to NOT regress, and for Jackson to be playable, and to have Arterio Morris playing 28+ mpg.

I'm just expressing frustration at - AGAIN! - us being at least one guard short. Which we have been for a very very very long time now, saved by Remy being Remy in the most improbable (but welcome!) way.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:21 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:17 pm We just aren't going to agree on this. Which is totally fine.

I am going to side with Bill Self knowing more about it than we ever possibly could solely watching games on TV.

The plan was for Harris to NOT regress, and for Jackson to be playable, and to have Arterio Morris playing 28+ mpg.

I don't agree that was the plan (to have Arterio play 28mpg and Elmarko take minutes from DH). That may have been your plan or hope....but I think Self's plan was to play DH 30mpg+ again. I think Arterios minutes would have come from Elmarko and Furphy.

Self also doesn't seem to agree that DH has regressed this year. He's explained as much in press conferences. He explained the increase in turnovers being due to DH having to take more chances this year and having to initiate the offense almost all the time.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:15 pm
A title does not confer this kind of status on a guy who was tenth on the title team in PER and WS/40.

I love me some PER but Crimscores are better ( wink ).
But really PER is so overwhelmingly based on just efficiency INSTEAD of actual stats ( regardless of minutes ).
You can't convince me that Harris wasn't more important than Zach Clemence, Jalen Coleman Lands and 1 PPG KJ Adams.

Harris clocks in at 6th ( .295 ) juuuust above Mitch Lightfoot ( .260 ) in Crimscores that season.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:21 pm
...and to have Arterio Morris playing 28+ mpg.

Nah fam.
You wanna talk about PER, don't look at Arterio Morris @ Texas.

Why do we think a dude who shot 41% from the field and had more turnovers per game than assists would be good?

The plan was for Harris to NOT regress, and for Jackson to be playable...

Yea, this is correct.

Elmarko Jackson became the latest Kansas men’s basketball signee to be recognized as a McDonald’s All-American this past week.

“I wasn’t surprised at all, I think he’s one of the best 24 high school seniors out there without question,” Self said Thursday.

pdub wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:24 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:15 pm
A title does not confer this kind of status on a guy who was tenth on the title team in PER and WS/40.

I love me some PER but Crimscores are better ( wink ).
But really PER is so overwhelmingly based on just efficiency INSTEAD of actual stats ( regardless of minutes ).
You can't convince me that Harris wasn't more important than Zach Clemence, Jalen Coleman Lands and 1 PPG KJ Adams.

Harris clocks in at 6th ( .295 ) juuuust above Mitch Lightfoot ( .260 ) in Crimscores that season.

Well, I didn't pick points per game because I thought that woulda been unfair to the little fella.

My point is that Harris was a role-player-quality player who happened to be needed for starter minutes.

It's to his massive credit that he kinda sorta handled those minutes well. But I think it's highly relevant that, come tournaments time, he was actually playing a much more appropriate amount - he averaged 24.3 minutes in the conference and NCAA tournaments, compared with >29 for the balance of the season.

He played more than Remy in the final four and national championship games.

So there's that.

DH average is skewed downward due to Providence and Creighton games.

Remy saved us and DH sucked is how some remember it.

When in reality it was more that Remy sucked most of the season and DH didn't.

Tbh, DMac saved Remy's KU legacy.

Again, he's a nice player.

You should ALWAYS want a guy like this in the rotation. You should NOT want a guy like this to be playing 35 mpg.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:30 pm

You should NOT want a guy like this to be playing 35 mpg.

Maybe not 5 years ago.

In the current environment I think you DO want a guy like him playing 35mpg. Not 5 guys like him, but 1 or 2 seems to work.

Same with KJ. He's in this boat too. He is extremely limited offensively. Clogs things up for everyone else because he isn't a threat beyond the free throw line.

Their experience and stability allows for sustainable success season to season.

The great players with tons of upside aren't around for multiple years nowadays. I would rather have DHs with flaws and limitations than Gradey Dicks with unrealized potential who bolt after one year.

CBB is weak now. The movement of players has hurt the quality of teams (on the whole).

I think to that 2008 FF. All 4 of those teams were significantly better than every single team in CBB this year.

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:33 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:30 pm

You should NOT want a guy like this to be playing 35 mpg.

Maybe not 5 years ago.

In the current environment I think you DO want a guy like him playing 35mpg. Not 5 guys like him, but 1 or 2 seems to work.

Same with KJ. He's in this boat too. He is extremely limited offensively. Clogs things up for everyone else because he isn't a threat beyond the free throw line.

Their experience and stability allows for sustainable success season to season.

The great players with tons of upside aren't around for multiple years nowadays. I would rather have DHs with flaws and limitations than Gradey Dicks with unrealized potential who bolt after one year.

I would just like to see year-over-year improvement from guys...and to this point Harris has obviously (to me, anyway) regressed, or at least stagnated.

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:50 pm

DeletedUser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:33 pm

jfish26 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:30 pm

You should NOT want a guy like this to be playing 35 mpg.

Maybe not 5 years ago.

In the current environment I think you DO want a guy like him playing 35mpg. Not 5 guys like him, but 1 or 2 seems to work.

Same with KJ. He's in this boat too. He is extremely limited offensively. Clogs things up for everyone else because he isn't a threat beyond the free throw line.

Their experience and stability allows for sustainable success season to season.

The great players with tons of upside aren't around for multiple years nowadays. I would rather have DHs with flaws and limitations than Gradey Dicks with unrealized potential who bolt after one year.

I would just like to see year-over-year improvement from guys...and to this point Harris has obviously (to me, anyway) regressed, or at least stagnated.

That's fair.



Another way to look at it:

Do you think you can find 30 point guards that make THIS team better than DH does? I looked and after about 15-20 it get's dicey.

I think DH is a top 20ish PG in CBB. I am fine with a top 20 at their position player being a starter. Especially when they are our 4th best player. We have the #2 center (HD) and the #1 SF (KM), along with another top 20 PF (Kj).

Are your personal expectations that we have top 5 or 10 players at their position at every position? If so, that's totally fine, I just don't think it's attainable now that transfers can move freely year to year and NIL entices players to leave for larger roles at worse programs.