Kansas Crimson

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:11 am It's more that gun owners seem to feel like everyone else is responsible for the culture issues but them. I have heard about how less religion, less traditional family models, less respect for others is all responsible for this. But I haven't heard jack shit about how all of the messaging about how we NEED these guns to defend ourselves from bad guys affects people who are around other bad guys a lot and how the NEED to defend our homes has morphed into just the need to defend our person and our egos.

The same damn people blaming it all on culture are out in social media feeds daring someone to try to come take their gun from them as if any affront to them will result in the offender getting shot and killed. Uh, HELLO?!?

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:49 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:11 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 8:50 am

~ 800 LEOs, i.e., "good guys with a gun" in the area, and yet...

That doesn't bug me as much. If the shooters WERE there with the express intent to shoot as many people as possible, I feel like the pure volume of LEO on site would have helped prevent that. I don't think "good guys with a gun" prevents confrontation shootings like this appears to be at all.

It's more that gun owners seem to feel like everyone else is responsible for the culture issues but them. I have heard about how less religion, less traditional family models, less respect for others is all responsible for this. But I haven't heard jack shit about how all of the messaging about how we NEED these guns to defend ourselves from bad guys affects people who are around other bad guys a lot and how the NEED to defend our homes has morphed into just the need to defend our person and our egos.

The same damn people blaming it all on culture are out in social media feeds daring someone to try to come take their gun from them as if any affront to them will result in the offender getting shot and killed. Uh, HELLO?!?

This is a thoughtful post. I think - and this not a criticism of anything you said, but an expansion - our thinking on all this stuff is somewhat disordered.

At bottom, what has happened is that millions of us have come to see guns in not just a practical way, but also a totemic way; a tangible representation of the concepts of freedom and liberty.

That is what informs this thing that many do, where the problem is anything but the gun, and the solution is to address anything but the gun. Admitting that the gun is the problem, and acting to address that problem, crosses a line that is, to people who think that way, as obvious and clear and bright to them as how I see apportioning blame for the war on Ukraine.

So what do you do? This is, like so many other things I would broadly categorize under the culture wars header, clearly something that is more an article of faith than an article of fact.

What do you do when a meaningful portion of the country genuinely holds what amount to religious beliefs on things that are, to a majority, secular?

We're in a very nasty spot.

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:58 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:49 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:11 am

That doesn't bug me as much. If the shooters WERE there with the express intent to shoot as many people as possible, I feel like the pure volume of LEO on site would have helped prevent that. I don't think "good guys with a gun" prevents confrontation shootings like this appears to be at all.

It's more that gun owners seem to feel like everyone else is responsible for the culture issues but them. I have heard about how less religion, less traditional family models, less respect for others is all responsible for this. But I haven't heard jack shit about how all of the messaging about how we NEED these guns to defend ourselves from bad guys affects people who are around other bad guys a lot and how the NEED to defend our homes has morphed into just the need to defend our person and our egos.

The same damn people blaming it all on culture are out in social media feeds daring someone to try to come take their gun from them as if any affront to them will result in the offender getting shot and killed. Uh, HELLO?!?

This is a thoughtful post. I think - and this not a criticism of anything you said, but an expansion - our thinking on all this stuff is somewhat disordered.

At bottom, what has happened is that millions of us have come to see guns in not just a practical way, but also a totemic way; a tangible representation of the concepts of freedom and liberty.

That is what informs this thing that many do, where the problem is anything but the gun, and the solution is to address anything but the gun. Admitting that the gun is the problem, and acting to address that problem, crosses a line that is, to people who think that way, as obvious and clear and bright to them as how I see apportioning blame for the war on Ukraine.

So what do you do? This is, like so many other things I would broadly categorize under the culture wars header, clearly something that is more an article of faith than an article of fact.

What do you do when a meaningful portion of the country genuinely holds what amount to religious beliefs on things that are, to a majority, secular?

We're in a very nasty spot.

It all ties back to my belief that many people are so wrapped up in defining themselves on social media that they get carried away. All the posturing and posing with guns and the big talk about "come and get them" and the "I own this to defend myself, my home and my family" just gets amplified to where it adds to this gun culture notion that some people feel that having and using a gun is what you need to do to defend yourself from anything you don't like or that harms you in any perceived way. It's insanity.

To me, it's alarming that someone may have seen these kids carrying those guns in the hours leading up to the shooting and just said "welp, it's Missouri where it's perfectly LEGAL for those kids to carry those guns here so no biggie I guess". What the fuck are we doing, America?

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 11:15 am

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:58 am

jfish26 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:49 am

This is a thoughtful post. I think - and this not a criticism of anything you said, but an expansion - our thinking on all this stuff is somewhat disordered.

At bottom, what has happened is that millions of us have come to see guns in not just a practical way, but also a totemic way; a tangible representation of the concepts of freedom and liberty.

That is what informs this thing that many do, where the problem is anything but the gun, and the solution is to address anything but the gun. Admitting that the gun is the problem, and acting to address that problem, crosses a line that is, to people who think that way, as obvious and clear and bright to them as how I see apportioning blame for the war on Ukraine.

So what do you do? This is, like so many other things I would broadly categorize under the culture wars header, clearly something that is more an article of faith than an article of fact.

What do you do when a meaningful portion of the country genuinely holds what amount to religious beliefs on things that are, to a majority, secular?

We're in a very nasty spot.

It all ties back to my belief that many people are so wrapped up in defining themselves on social media that they get carried away. All the posturing and posing with guns and the big talk about "come and get them" and the "I own this to defend myself, my home and my family" just gets amplified to where it adds to this gun culture notion that some people feel that having and using a gun is what you need to do to defend yourself from anything you don't like or that harms you in any perceived way. It's insanity.

To me, it's alarming that someone may have seen these kids carrying those guns in the hours leading up to the shooting and just said "welp, it's Missouri where it's perfectly LEGAL for those kids to carry those guns here so no biggie I guess". What the fuck are we doing, America?

We are eagerly subjecting ourselves to violence and danger that will cause everyone to go back to and stay in their corners. Stifling even the opportunity to live, work, play, celebrate and mourn across demographic and ideological lines.

dolomite wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 11:40 am Those little shits who fired their guns at the Chiefs celebration need to be tried as adults and punished as such.

twocoach wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:56 pm

dolomite wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 11:40 am Those little shits who fired their guns at the Chiefs celebration need to be tried as adults and punished as such.

That is likely the path this is headed. I assume they are just going through the tedious process of getting that formalized.

twocoach wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:44 am https://www.kmbc.com/article/olathe-man ... -autopilot

The guy people rushed to label either an "illegal immigrant" or a "skinhead". Got arrested for being half as shitfaced as Travis Kelce.

Just goes to show what our own biases do to us. Some people on the right screamed "illegal immigrant while some on the left screamed "skinhead". Some see what they expect to see without waiting for context or additional details. Just confirms how worthless and potentially dangerous eyewitness testimony can be.

Sparko wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:48 pm I said the guy being dragged away from a murder scene with a shaved head looked like that brand. Later shots showed a pissed off guy who was having a really bad day in an unbranded red jump suit without the yellow. If you sneak into a Vikings rally, I suppose you wear purple. Anyway, bad simile.

KUTradition wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 7:51 pm 2 police officers, 1 firefighter dead after responding to domestic incident in Minnesota

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/18/us/b ... index.html

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 5:12 pm As with all of this...it wasn't Sparky's post. It was the presumptions behind it.

Which he has no remorse about whatsoever.

Shirley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:58 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 5:12 pm As with all of this...it wasn't Sparky's post. It was the presumptions behind it.

Which he has no remorse about whatsoever.

Won't lie, at first I thought you and Tdub were joking.

TDub wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:12 pm

Shirley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:58 pm

DCHawk1 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 5:12 pm As with all of this...it wasn't Sparky's post. It was the presumptions behind it.

Which he has no remorse about whatsoever.

Won't lie, at first I thought you and Tdub were joking.

sigh.

Shirley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:24 pm

TDub wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:12 pm

Shirley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:58 pm

Won't lie, at first I thought you and Tdub were joking.

sigh.

Without wasting any more time on this subject to go back and look, is there any chance the amount of umbrage expressed by you and DC for going on days now due to a comment by Sparko approaches or exceeds the amount of outrage you've expressed about the shooting of 22 and killing of 1 itself?
Because, it's beginning to seem like it.